Comic Boom - Comics in Education with Inflatables writers Beth Garrod and Jess Hitchman

0:08

Hello, and welcome to comic boom, the comics and education podcast. If you are interested in hearing more about the crossover between comics and education, then this is the podcast for you. My name is Lucy Starbuck Bradley. And each week I'll be joined by fellow educator and academic, a librarian or a creator of comics to discuss their journey into comics and provide some inspiration to influence your practice and hopefully as well, shine some light on some titles that you can bring into your classrooms, your libraries, and your bookshelves at home as well. This week, I'm joined by a writing duo, very excited, not just one writer, but two writers on the podcast and writers who write together as well. I'm joined by Beth Garrett and Jess Hitchman creators of the inflatables series. Beth is the author of this super awkward series. After growing up in Worcester UK, she's worked all around the world, including the USA, India, South Africa, and Canada, producing everything from mental health campaigns to music, TV shows. She now lives in east London and splits her time between writing and social impact campaigns that help to inform and empower young people. Jess Hitchman started her career as an online agony aunt on a.com boom website with teenage girls. And since then she's worked for youth and entertainment brands, including Cbeebies. CBBC lots of names that you would recognize. and just talk a little bit about that today and how it influenced her writing. Jess is the author of picture books, Ava in code land, and all kinds of awesome. As well as in every house on every streets. And together, Jess and Beth. Of a co-creators and writers of graphic chapter book, the inflatables, which is published by Scholastic. And we talk about that a lot today. It's illustrated by Chris danger. And again, we unpick that relationship a little bit. In our conversation. There are a number of inflatables titles available. I really enjoyed reading them. And they're black and white inside, which will be very familiar if you're a manga reader to have black and white content inside of a, of a comic but it might be something new if you've only if you're used to reading color graphic novels. So something to give a try, uh, the books are very funny and Beth and Jess very funny. You could definitely hear that humor coming through in the interview and they've got great relationship It was lovely to hear them discuss their working relationship and collaboration together and help us to find out a little bit more about what it's like to be a writer of comics. So here's what Beth and Jess had to say.

Track 1: 2:31

Hello, Beth and Jess. Welcome to Comic Boom.

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 2:34

Hello.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 2:35

Hi.

Track 1: 2:37

Hello. You are very welcome. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 2:42

Thanks much for, for inviting us.

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 2:44

Thank you so much. Yeah, we're excited.

Track 1: 2:46

you are our

Lucy: 2:47

first writing duo to be on the podcast. I'd really like out a little bit more about your, uh,, journey as comics readers. Beth, first of all, where did that all start for you? Are you a comics reader? It's very presumptuous. um, and if so, when, when did that start? Mm-hmm.

Beth: 3:04

Well, I mean, I'm gonna go way back. I dunno how many people have already said this to you, but I was actually in the fan club for the Beano and I had the furry sort of Gnasher nipper badges. and that, that was just a massive part of my. Childhood really. But I didn't know sort of where it would lead and I think we'll probably talk about it a bit more later, but I didn't know that graphic novels are gonna be on our radar at all. So it's been a really lovely full circle thing and it's also something we're learning more about and discovering more about or as we go.

Track 1: 3:34

what do you think it was that appealed to you about the Beano?

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 3:38

Sorry, is that too old? Am I too old? Should have said something.

Track 1: 3:42

lots of people. Lots of people mentioned Beano and in fact, excitingly, Beano are gonna be on this series, so it's all very

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 3:49

oh. oh. I think it was just, it felt really for me, you know, it didn't feel, it felt like something that was, when I got it, it didn't feel like, something that anyone else in my family would be interested in. It felt like my own like, cool thing. I love some of the, like the female characters in there, Minnie the Minx, and I love the dog. I also really liked the variety, so there was lots of stuff. Some of it wasn't for me and some of it I absolutely loved. it just felt a bit sort of special and it felt current and topical and it just felt a bit naughty as well, I think, compared to some of the books that I was reading.

Track 1: 4:22

Yeah, definitely. And Jess, what about you?

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 4:25

Same. I'm afraid Beano was the thing. Really joined the club, got the badges. I remember my dad one time bringing home the Dandy and it just wasn't the same. So I was a big fan of the Beano. love Banana Man, and I always forget whether Banana was in the Beo Beano the Dandy on its own. But,

Track 1: 4:41

He was in Beano.

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 4:43

He was Beano a back then, a loved banana man. And then, when I got a bit older, I got really into, into the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. and I mean, to be totally honest, it was as much about the TV and the toys and,

Track 1: 4:54

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that whole thing,

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 4:57

Yeah. It was just, it was such an amazing world. I think I was quite a bit older. I think I was like heading on to the teen years then. But I did have the comics as well. And then really had a big gap, I would say, in comics until, I started reading graphic novels with my kids.

Track 1: 5:12

Oh, interesting.

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 5:13

yeah. so now, you know, now they're, now they're great. I love, um, We read quite a lot. We got started on Narwhal and Jelly, which is just, So funny and so cute. And I think, because my youngest started with that, she was always just on the lookout for graphic novels. So we kind of upgraded to the Catstronauts a really big favorite in our family. but yeah, there was probably, you know, 20 years longer, 30 years gap in between the two. But back into it now.

Track 1: 5:40

And there's so much right out there now as well. Beth, what are you reading at the moment? Anything particularly sparking joy for you that's out there currently for children or adults? In terms of comics?

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 5:51

Oh, can I.

Track 1: 5:54

Question. Mm-hmm.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 5:55

What would you say is a differentiator between like comics and graphic novels? answer the question, right?

Track 1: 6:02

I would say that graphic novels are comics, but they're just longer form comics. So everything, everything can be called comics, but graphic novels got a thicker spine. There's a longer story.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 6:11

Because I, I sort of think that, but then sometimes you into bookshops and they're called one thing. Sometimes they're called another. And it's like, I just find it kind of interesting that everyone has their own like, take on it. I think both Jess and I really love Agent Moose. We just think it's like a really fab series for kids. and I'm really, I haven't read it yet, but I really wanna get my hands on, 12th grade knight. Dunno if you've seen it, but it's like a graphic novel retelling that's like a high school, um, 12th night.

Track 1: 6:36

Oh, cool.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 6:36

yeah, it looks really good. So that's the one I'm looking to get my hands on next.

Track 1: 6:44

really interesting, the kind of humor element linking, with the Beano as well. Was that really important when you started writing to, capture a little bit of that naughtiness and that kind of humor?

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 6:55

Not directly. We never thought of it, did we Beth? But I guess all of your influences come in somehow. And as soon as we started writing, we did find some kind of common ground. On things that were just sort of cheeky and ridiculous. and I think the big thing for both of us has always been friendship based stories and things that it was, are really about friendship. And obviously that's partly, you know, our friendship coming across, but I'm sure that does sort of trace back to our,, you know, the comics and TV shows that we liked as a kid. Because looking, looking at the Beano, there's so many, different themes of friendship coming through there.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 7:30

I think in, in, fairness, like we never sort of said, oh, this is what we definitely want to do but You spend so much time writing books, you have to really enjoy it. And I think Jess and I, when we hang out, we always have a really fun time. And so that was always gonna be the kind of book that we would write. Laugh, laugh, sometimes we worry that it doesn't make anyone else laugh, other than us.

Track 1: 7:55

Beth, for anyone who's listening who hasn't had a chance to explore, inflatables world yet, can you introduce it a little bit to the listeners?

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 8:04

Why did you askme? Jess, don't judge me if I get this totally wrong! A bunch of abandoned pool floats athave a great spray waterpark. So you've got Flamingo Donut, cactus, watermelon, and you've got, who's been there, done that, got the puncture, that's Lynn. And they get up to all sort of adventures in the waterpark and beyond. and it's funny, it's sort of pumped full of humor and it's just full of their adventures and I guess sort of. As long as they've all got each other, they can always sort of find a way through. They don't have to be the newest, the flashiest, the best, but they always find their way through. Jess, I don't think I did that very well. Could you please, uh,

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 8:48

I am so glad you asked that, Lucy. That was perfect. Well, why do find hard our own

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 8:54

I dunno. Why had we not just written that down and read it out? I.

Track 1: 9:00

uh, just for the listeners, people do have access to the questions in advance, so why people aren't prepared. I don't know.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 9:07

I think.

Track 1: 9:20

one thing that I'm really interested in, particularly in the educational context, and I think when we're, about Teaching children about writing. And when you are writing in a school context, it is much more a solitary kind of exercise. And I think that from what I've learned from over the course of this podcast series is just that actually in the real world, the, the creation of a book, even if it's just one author is involving lots and lots of different people, it's really teamwork, but Even more so this sort of collaborative pairing. So I really wanna dig into that today. how did this come about, this pairing? When did you start to decide to work together?

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 10:00

Yeah, so

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 10:01

I was nodding a lot then, by the way.

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 10:04

for the record, Beth nodded. Um, So Beth and I worked, when we first met, we were working together in a job. We worked at Radio One together, and I think we always had little side projects. We were always, that was how we connected, really just having creative ideas and kind of wanting to make them happen. We had lots of little failed ideas along the way, and then, independently both started writing about 10 years later. and Beth writes really long books. She, she writes novels I write very short kind of picture books. And so we just had an idea that, you know, one day we should try and meet in the middle. I still don't think I could ever write anything as long as Beth does. And she was interested in finding out more about writing for younger kids. And so we just sort of settled on this. age range, basically. That's right in between what she does and what I do. and then we had the idea for a while, didn't we? And then it was just waiting for the right time, you know, schedules and things that we could, get down and start writing it. But it was so fun. We already have such a kind of, Uh, you know, common language so I think it would be fun to write with someone new as well. I think that could push you. for me and Beth, we just know each other inside out. I mean, we really do. We text multiple times every day and it feels weird if a couple of days go, goes past and we don't. so writing this just felt, yeah, it just, it did feel really natural, but we still, you know, we had to work out our processes and, how it was actually gonna get beyond just us having a giggle about random, inflated objects.

Track 1: 11:33

and Beth, what does that look like in reality, what is the actual process of how you, I mean, I'm assuming it's not one word, alternating one person. I've here

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 11:41

I.

Track 1: 11:43

How does it work?

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 11:45

Well, we, like Jess said, we sort of really found our feet with it. And also just, just to sort of add on something that Jess said as well about, you know, it taking a while, it can be really like embarrassing when you put a new idea out into the world, especially if you've already done something and I think we've both got the same agent. And Jess, I dunno if you'd agree with this, if you don't make a loud noise and we can edit. It also felt like, oh, imagine this, this is absolutely wild. And we've like lost our heads here. So like it takes a while to actually press send on it because you just think, oh goodness, how are they gonna politely tell us that we've really missed the mark? So, kept saying to our agent like, we have to, you know, it's a inflatables at a water. But, um, yeah, she was supportive. Yes. Would you say that was true? Like there was a bit of nervousness around it too?

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 12:32

I think we still ask ourselves that every book, probably every chapter, oh. oh. Have we completely lost it at this point? People are probably reading this and you know, people probably read it and they, oh, it's very boring. Why would you consider that? But yeah, we just sometimes wonder if we've, and sometimes we do go too far. And luckily we do have an amazing editor, an amazing agent to just reign us back in.

Track 1: 12:54

Do you find that you are generally of one mind about things or are there ever disagreements or things that you have to kind of negotiate?

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 13:04

I realize that absolutely didn't answer your question about process. So maybe I'll try and answer that and then sort of touch on this, which is we found our feet and when we first wrote it, I think it's probably okay to say it was a chapter book, not a graphic novel, and it was our amazing editor that was like, oh, have you thought about this? And we hadn't thought about this.'cause neither of us, I mean, Jess is an incredible sort of illustrator, but she doesn't illustrate her own. Books. So we sort of, we weren't really like in that world yet, so we were like, oh, we hadn't thought about a graphic novel. And, and then we sort of like figured out the process. And I mean it's prob, I dunno how interesting this is to someone. Maybe this is super boring, but it's very much a shared Google doc. We very much got that chapter breakdown together. That often takes the longest thing. And what we found works well now is to really have an idea of the chapters. And then sort of divide them up and then just constantly sort of go back and I just leave spaces where I need to write jokes. I just put X, X, X or like need to make funny in capital letters. Whereas Jess actually managed to plow through and get everything down. And we've both got really different sort of styles and. Jess is really great at getting the story across really quickly and being super funny. And I can be really long-winded and like derail into different areas, but we sort of get it all down. Agree that, you know, no judgment, we're really supportive of each other and we're really critical of ourselves. And then we jump into each other's and just try and add comments and things and just like lay layer, layer, layer it up, I guess. But we found that process, just I, I guess naturally really. And it seems to work quite Jess.

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 14:36

Yeah, it works great. I think in terms of like arguments or disagreements, we've both got a real mutual adoration for our editor, Jenny, so.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 14:46

Yeah.

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 14:47

If we're ever in, you know, you know, interested in going in two different routes, we just leave. We just leave it to Jenny and she just comes in and however, however strongly I, you know, cared about my original route, it's like, yeah, Jenny, Jenny knows best. And so that, it's great to have this extra person to just kind of decide it for us. Although I will say, I dunno if I should bring this up, Beth, we once had a really big argument about goggles.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 15:10

Oh yeah, we did, we did. Goggles are probably, yeah, so just,

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 15:14

really.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 15:15

it's ongoing, It's ongoing. Like all I can say is Jess is a very big fan of the adult Goggle wearer. I didn't know that goggles were so predominant in the adult swimming field, but I think Jess is just more Olympic level.

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 15:29

Lucy.

Track 1: 15:30

don't wanna get chlorine in your eye, do you? Gotta gotta have the goggles on. gonna come down on the way

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 15:34

like you're, it sounds like you're on my side there.

Track 1: 15:36

team goggles here.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 15:39

Look, I, I support everyone wearing goggles when they wanna wear goggles. I don't think we like really disagree that much. And I, I think there are times when one of us will want something the other doesn't or thinks is funny. It isn't. And we sort of, I think we have. Well, we'll both let most things slide because we sort of both listen to each other and occasionally there'll be something which is like, oh, I really love this. So then we're like, okay, cool. Like we're both just, I think, quite reasonable about it and find a, find a middle ground. And I often really care about things. I'm like, I cannot be a hedgehog. And then the next day I'm like, oh no, I slept on you. I totally think I definitely, yeah. Thanks Jess. You're totally right.

Track 1: 16:15

Are you ever in the same place physically or is it all, is this all online? Do you get together kind of, in a cafe and have a brainstorm or,

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 16:22

We do a bit of everything, so definitely near the beginning we wrote a couple of these in lockdown and we would do All day, on a screen share. We would even leave it on, you know, when we were going away to write our separate bits. and then now, We'll be texting about everything normal in our day-to-day lives. Plus a cheeky question about whether Flamingo should, you know, be wearing goggles or in the next chapter. So, have meet up sometimes. It's nice at the beginning of the book, I would say, to spend quite a lot of time together. So while we're just defining exactly what the story is and making sure that we're both super, super happy, we would never sort of go into the writing phase until we both loved it. So that's a really good time to chat together. But then we will do a chapter each and we'll kind of go off separately and do a chapter, and then we will edit each other's chapter, and really kind of get it to the point where they hopefully sound like they've come from kind of the same voice.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 17:15

We've learned stuff along the way, so we will write the illustration notes and then write the sort of dialogue and. I think what we've tried to get better at, and this was a learning for us, is that not to have too much on every page, not be like panel 29 and then everything's tiny and you can't really see any of the great work that our illustrated Chris Danger has done because it's so small. So we try to sort of let the art breathe a bit more, but that's because.

Track 1: 17:43

Yeah.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 17:44

and and once we'd done the first book, we were like, oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. and the other thing is that is I think we tried to get better at letting the art tell some of the story. Whereas originally we were sort of writing it all. Actually we can sort of let the pictures do the talking and the story driving as well. So we've tried to get, I think that's something that we've learned and tried to sort of improve along the way, but also we love our illustrator and, um, when he sends stuff back, it's sort of funnier and more jokes than we could have imagined. So it's about sort of giving that, the, the space as well.

Track 1: 18:18

And so you work with Chris Danger. That was one of my next question was was about Chris and what point does he get involved? And was that sort of a matchmaking that happened at, at with the publishers or were you already aware of his, of his work?

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 18:32

Yeah, so that was a, um, that was a pairing by Jenny, our editor. She sent over Chris's work near the beginning of the project and we loved it. He, he's so funny, he's so expressive and, uh, just brings So much to it all. We don't talk to him directly, but we, you know, via our illustration notes, that's kind of really writing for Chris. so for each panel we'll kind of do a little description. And like Beth said, you know, at the beginning we'd be much more, uh, prescriptive about it and then getting to know Chris's style and how much extra humor, he injects into it. We've tried to start leaving them a little bit open and we'll sometimes even say in in those notes or anything that Chris thinks of or you know, a list of things that might pop inflatables. Whereas previously we would've said exactly what they all are and sometimes we'll just leave it.'cause we know that Chris will bring something really funny along. And then we get, like the first draft of illustrations, we'll have a look through. He'll sometimes pass on some comments to us and questions. We'll pass'em back via, via the notes. So, um, but we follow him on Instagram and he is really funny, so we feel connected, even though a lot of that does happen via the publisher.

Track 1: 19:41

Yeah, that's really interesting. what was it like, Beth, the first time you got those character designs and started to see what the actual finished might look like?

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 19:50

Well, I think, I think we're similar, Jess and I, but also different in that I'd never had any illustrations for any of my books at all at this point. So, um, I was completely not used to it and it was just really exciting.

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 20:06

it never gets old, it's still an absolute joy to see something that you've invented. Yeah. Be brilliantly illustrated like that.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 20:13

Yeah, and sometimes we write stuff now, like every book we really enjoy. Getting the artwork back is just always a real treat. It's like, oh, it's in quick. And there's just some scenes that you just know are gonna be, you're just really excited to get to that page just to see how, how they come out. And often we just think. Oh yeah, poor Chris Like we wrote this thing and it makes no sense. Like how can you have an inflatable this with that, doing this at that time and it all somehow makes sense And he just somehow does make sense for all and it's just, yeah, it's real. It's just a real treat and I love it. And it's, I think it's, I know you talked at the start about, um, in education, writing on your own

Track 1: 20:54

mm.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 20:56

but then writing with Jess and then having Chris on board, having, you know, people like Jenny, like just a real trusted bunch of people who you think are brilliant. It's just so much fun and I would just really recommend it to, to anyone. If they have someone that they enjoy working with or you know, think is great, then it's a really lovely thing to do as a job is spend time with your friend and write about things that make you laugh and have someone brilliant bring them to life. So yeah, 10 outta 10, no notes.

Track 1: 21:26

I would skip ahead to a little bit more of an in-depth question on that, about, your experience of writing in school. do you think it prepared you for the life as a writer or. Or, you know, things that, that could have been different for you. I I just think it's really interesting to hear from professionals about, about that kind of journey that they went on, in education. So, Jess, I dunno if you can start us off, if did you like writing at school? Were you super into it or was that something that came later?

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 21:56

Yeah, I did like it. I do remember, um,, I did like writing poems and at school I like making things rhyme. I do remember the feeling of enjoying it. I think the one thing that I think, I don't think I came outta school thinking I, I wanted to be a writer or that I was particularly good at it. And, the one thing that I do think, and maybe schools do it a little bit more now, but that was a bit difficult, was, was the timed, you know, the kind of scenario of being given 10 minutes, come up with your idea. And then, you know, you're kind of stuck with that for two weeks. And if I think about how I write now, I could never do that. You know? the idea is they, you know, as cliche as it sounds, they come in the bath or they come on a walk or, you know, when you're doing, you know, chopping a salad. So I don't think that's really replicated in schools, or it wasn't when I was at school. It might be much better now. But then, yeah, that feeling of you had Such a specific time to come up with your idea and then you might be stuck with that idea for a week and you kind of hate it, you know, which feels like a bit of a shame and feels very different to the way I write now.

Track 1: 22:58

So when did you first start to think that being a writer might be something that you could be.

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 23:03

I think when I realized I didn't really enjoy anything else, so my first job I worked at Children's B b C and I just wanted to be there. I wanted to be there for the Saturday morning shows. I think I was still just a kid essentially, and writing. So I got a job on the website, which just kind of combined all the things that I was interested in. Um,'cause I always liked computer games and technology. then I did like comics and, know, a bit of photography. So it really kind of brought everything together. But the writing, I think even then I had, same feeling. I remember I'd sort of sit at the desk and, spend most of the day sort of trying to fill the day with the, you know, the admin parts of the job and then try and have my ideas outside of the office. Um, And I think now as you get like more experienced and you get, you know, more senior, you've got sort of the confidence to say, right, this isn't working. I'm going for a walk, or This isn't working. I'm going, you know, to sit outside for a bit when you first start a job, a bit like when you're in school, you have no power to kind of, you know, I can't imagine any kids halfway through their classroom saying they need to go, know, get some inspiration I always wrote for my job, but I always worked in digital. it was kind of writing little articles rather than necessarily coming up with fiction. and then that really just happened. Like I, I know it's a bit of a cliche as well, but when I had kids, and I was just reading lots and lots of kids books, having ideas and compared to other sort of ideas that me and Beth had always had these ideas for. Like businesses and charities and ideas that are really difficult to make happen, uh, you know, without investment and all that kind of stuff. And then, books suddenly it was like, oh, you can have your idea and pretty much write it. And then it's, you know, you send it off to someone and then it's a thing. So, that was when it started, and I started with picture books. I'm doing a little bit of board book stuff now, but really when I saw Beth writing longer things, I thought, oh, I could do that, but maybe we could together.

Track 1: 24:50

That's brilliant. And Beth, have you got any of your own reflections on education and its role in becoming a writer?

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 24:57

so this is really interesting because like Jess and I haven't talked about this kind of stuff, so I'm, yeah, it's really interesting for me to hear that Jess. I like, I haven't reflected on this much and I like to be really honest, don't think I loved writing at school because I don't think I ever really got the chance to write things that I enjoyed reading and I often enjoy like contemporary funny. Very sort of every day. that's the books I write, sort of ya, middle grade stuff. I, and when I think back when you just asked that question about I think back to what I was writing at school, it's like quite serious. and I, I did some stuff outta school, like some plays and stuff in my spare time, but I just all assumed that. I was just, you know, they weren't very good. I didn't, just didn't really think about it. then did science at Uni and weirdly similar to Jess, this was before I met Jess. Ended up working at the B B C originally on their website for teenagers. And that's when I started writing stuff. and there was this amazing lady on the team called Ali Cronin and she was an incredible writer. And then she some brilliant books and. I've, I just never thought of it. And then you meet someone who's doing it like, you know, often with these worlds, they feel just a million miles away. You cannot imagine a route into them. And actually you just sort of need to yeah, it's different for everybody. But, um, was doing, she was brilliant and that was the first, and she was really supportive and encouraging. And that was the first time I thought, oh, well that's a nice thing to say, and I do enjoy it. And, and that's what I ended up writing. My first novel was in my spare time because I was doing less writing in my job. And then I just didn't, and then panicked and didn't do anything with it. And my mom said, oh, I knew you'd never do anything with it So I was like, oh, fine, fine, I'll then fine. Um, and that's when I sent it to my agent. That's sort of when it all started. But I think, imposter syndrome is real. I think if, I think when I was young thinking of being a writer feels like, oh, I have chosen this job and I have shown incredible skill at this craft and. They were never me or where I've got to. It was just like a series of events that led to this point. And I, I guess maybe that's important because you don't always have to know where you're gonna end up. When you are younger. You can sort of do things that you enjoy and see where it takes you, which is, you know, I guess a privileged position. I, I meant sort of within the confines of still having to money and mortgage and all kind of things. Writing for was very much alongside the day job. So when Jess talks about, schedules and things as well and how we write together, you know, we don't live near each other. If we did, we'd see a lot more of each other, but we live like hours away from each other. And we're also trying to juggle other things of life too. So I think there's a bit of a miscomprehension that you can just, Take a day and sit by the sea until you feel that your idea has manifested perfectly. And actually it's like, I've got 90 minutes now and I have to get this chapter, you know, as much of it done as possible. So, so that was very long. I told you I was long and rambling and just as good at being succinct with her story. I'm sorry.

Track 1: 27:50

No, it is good. It was a good, it was a good lengthy answer. It was really interesting. And do you you ever done any author visits? Have you now gone back into schools as writers to talk about work? Is that something you've done before

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 28:02

When Jess and I said we used to work on websites and TV shows and stuff is that, go in and you have all these prepared things and basically everyone in that room is way funnier, So it is just a really, it's a really nice thing to do. But it is also really lovely because there's just like people there, like young people there, like brimming with ideas, Bri brimming with jokes. It's just like a real pleasure to. To hear them and like on the website stuff, we used to write things, I dunno about you, Jess. And then the inbox and you know, the comments that we got back from young people were like, you know, hundreds of times funny that we could have ever written. And I think that's, that's just a really nice thing to get to be around. So yeah, school visits are fun and it's nice to do something that Yeah, feels a little bit more like they can let loose, I guess.

Track 1: 28:49

At the end of the podcast, I, ask us to pick out some key takeaways that might just things that Teachers to think about that might help to influence their practice I don't know if you've got any suggestions, if there's anyone who wants to go first or things could be summarizing things that we've already talked about could be kind of new points to bring to the table.

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 29:07

Yeah, I, so I think the collaboration thing is really, and the fun of us working together, I think it's really important and I'm sure lots of classrooms do incorporate that. but just in case they don't, I do think, you know, you can, find, other people that can push you and compliment you. So I think that's worth, trying a bit more in classrooms. I also think just worrying less about the format. So, I hope now that there isn't such a, I mean, you'll know better than me, but there isn't such a kind of, issue with graphic novels being seen as lesser. but I think even beyond that, just not worrying about formats. At all. You know, I think kids don't see it that way. They're, you know, they're, they're moving through their Roblox games after watching a movie, after reading the book. And, you know, I think it's, it is, it's character and story that is where the messages come from. And I, you know, I understand there needs to be some limit on, video games, but they're also so valuable. Or can be, and I think that suggestion of graphic novels, not being as intellectual sort of just comes from that. Mindset of, over focusing on the format rather than what, what is the story here and what is the character? I think that's really important. and then just, just the thing that I was saying earlier about the inspiration and because I worry that, you know, kids who don't have a really quick idea, are gonna potentially think that they're not good at this. And so allowing that extra time at the beginning, I think, Would be really nice and would give, you know, some more kids an opportunity to discover, you know, where their

Track 1: 30:36

Yeah, that's a really good point. I was just thinking when you were talking about the collaboration. So one of the episodes, this season is with a researcher, Helen Jones, and she runs children's comics, writing workshops in a comics club in a school. And that's what she's sort of focusing her research on. And she was talking about How in the comics club, the children will sort of write in small groups and that and that also that they're doing exactly what you're saying, like they will Take things, from other, other inspiration from their life, like from a computer game they really like, or something like films that they've seen and then adapt to make it their own and kind of reflect and also kind of comment on it in their writing. Kind of change it. Notice things that are maybe, you know, they don't like about it and change that, and that they take that ownership of whatever they're consuming out in the world, and then can use their writing as a way to kind of process that and, and think about it

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 31:28

Yeah.

Track 1: 31:29

more and sort of make a comment on it.

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 31:31

and I think also working in a group as well, because a lot of writers, me and Beth definitely don't do this, but a lot of writers, you know, will do improv and that's how they come up with their stories. And know, Beth and I will kind of, when we're reading it back, we'll take turns to do the dialogue. And, you know, sometimes just, yeah, the way you speak something, helps you find something else. So there may be some kids that, that's their, that's their way of writing is like, which could, you know, potentially only happen in a group, you know, and finding the dialogue and it's such a, Early, um, you know, when you're first writing, very common to make all your characters kind of sound the same, but the aspect of working in a group and, you know, hearing people's speech and if they're reading out the dialogue, and particularly with graphic novels where it's so sort of dialogue focused you, yeah, it's just could be much richer sometimes if you do as, as a group. Obviously there'll be lots of kids and people who prefer to work independently as well, but just to have it as an option really.

Track 1: 32:22

Beth, have you got anything that you'd like to bring in at this point?

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 32:25

I totally agree with everything Jess said, especially about like the collaboration because I think if people think of being a writer, they think of this.

Track 1: 32:34

Mm.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 32:36

I think the other thing is like on a point of reassurance, which is if, if Jess and I sent out the draft of something we wrote, we would be absolutely mortified. And I know that everyone sort of knows this, but. It's okay to get something. We always call it like our vomit draft. Like just get something down and you can make it better and you know, it doesn't have to be brilliant the sort of the first time round and that's okay. You can come back to something. And I think the other thing, and again not, I don't wanna, as Jess said, say that this isn't happening.'cause there's like loads of incredible teachers and you know, my experience was so long ago, but. I think there's no shame in writing what you enjoy and there's no one way to be a writer. I guess reflecting a bit on that format thing as well, you know, you don't have to write like an opus or a, um, sci-fi fantasy like odyssey. You can write jokes about a dog that make you laugh and they will still bring a reader joy and happiness and give them a little their day that. Kids know that there's many different ways of doing something, and even though they might not feel they have the skills get into X, Y, and Z, do you know if they, if they're making their friends laugh in the playground, they're probably a really good writer because they're a really good storyteller. They just might not see it that way because they might not feel that they have, you know, X, Y, and Z skill.

Track 1: 33:53

that's such a good point. yeah, that, and, you know, I don't want to delve into sort of stereotypes, but you know, Children who I taught when I was a teacher, who I, there's many of them who are really, really funny, always the person, you know, the quickest person with, you know, the quip. Uh, the first person to notice something that's gone wrong, and alert the class to it. Who sees those kind of moments. I just think that's a really great way of like identifying those, that as a skill that Yeah, just the, the being funny is a skill. Um, and, uh, yeah, something to celebrate.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 34:25

I think, and I don't, yeah, I dunno how everyone else feels and sort of what gets taught, but when I handed in my first novel and my agent was like, oh my goodness, you've nailed the voice, but like, is there a story here? And like, she helped me understand story structure and she helped me understand lots of things that I didn't really have and understand before. And that was all about just getting voice, right? So I think if, if someone who's young can bring these characters to life, like Jess was saying, Sort learn some of the other skills too. I think's room for lots different people, lots of different skills.

Track 1: 34:58

Yeah. Yeah. I also like the idea that there might be teachers listening to this who maybe think that they're not, they can't, you know, be writers, but listening to this podcast, listening to creators might be aware of them also unlocking or feeling confident to listen, give something and go.

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 35:15

Definitely, yeah.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 35:16

yeah.

Track 1: 35:17

So at the end of the podcast, we ask guests to recommend a comic or a book to add to their, to be read piles. If we were gonna add one book to our pile tomorrow, what would you recommend?

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 35:32

I am just looking at the author of mine. Hold on.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 35:35

I can actually hear you Googling

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 35:36

Sorry. Uh, do you wanna, do you, I'll stop typing. Do you wanna go, Beth, you've got one in mind.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 35:43

Can I just ask question? Do you mean in the.

Track 1: 35:47

Can, it doesn't actually matter. I don't, we've had, people interpret this. When I first asked the question, I was thinking it would be a comic or a book about comics, but actually people have recommended all sorts and that's fine.

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 35:58

Okay. I'm a really big fan of the Catstronauts series. my daughter's really into space and, science and all that stuff, and also really cute kitten. So that was like a kind of perfect combination for us. If you, the kids in your classroom or at home may have a similar interest, it's a really great series. It's by Drew Brockington and there's six of them. So you can. Yeah, that'll keep you busy in the non, graphic novel category. I might be a bit late to this, so this might be really embarrassing and everyone knows and loves it, but we are just really getting into the Grimwood series by Nadia. Does everyone know that

Track 1: 36:32

I love Nadia Shereen. She's, she's a very funny person

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 36:35

She's brilliant. And this, series is just hilarious. So funny, and it's, it's, it's fiction, but it's got so many illustrations that I would, it just feels to me that it has a sort of graphic novel kind of series. some of the sensibilities are there that it's just really funny. Really good.

Track 1: 36:50

Brilliant. Thank you for those. Beth, are you, are you ready?

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 36:54

yeah. Well, um, yes, I am ready. I would say that in a graphic novel. I would say 12th grade night because it's, Shakespeare is funny, it's YA I, it's all the teen movies that I used to love, like in the nineties, it's 10 things I Hate About You, and it's a graphic novel and it's just sort of a really sort of more modern, inclusive retelling of it, which is. is lovely and I think will sort of bring people to, um, stories that might, might not have thought they were for them. And that's by, by Molly Horton Booth and Stephanie Kate Strong and I think illustrated by Jamie Green. Sorry if I've got that wrong. I've just been reading a book that I absolutely loved, but it's not for, it's an adult book, so I dunno if that's an Okay.

Track 1: 37:38

Well, I wanna, I wanna know it. Give it, yeah. Come on. Sure.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 37:41

on. the, on. the sort of ya in middle grade, anything by Simon James Green, I absolutely love and his stuff at the minute is stellar. But for an adult I've just read Harriet Gibson's. Is, is this Okay? Which is all about sort of navigating life through, I guess sort of the naughties, maybe nineties, but also through sort of social media and the internet and having access to everything all at once about people and then how that feels when you sort of meet them in real life. So yeah, I dunno if any of those are useful. Sorry.

Track 1: 38:10

No, that sounds really interesting. Thank you. They are definitely, I'll definitely add them to my list. Thank you very much and thank you for coming onto the podcast. You've been brilliant guests. It's been great to talk to you both. I really love your books, so yeah, thank you for coming on.

jess_1_09-11-2023_124055: 38:24

Thanks so much, Lucy. Thank you.

beth_1_09-11-2023_124057: 38:26

Yeah, Thanks for having us. It's been really nice.

38:32

Thank you. Beth and Jess, I really enjoyed that conversation. I found it so interesting to think a little bit more about the role that writing for pleasure can play in schools. how we can tap into that genuine inspiration that children might. Get outside of the classroom, and it was often not possible when it comes to meeting the demands of the curriculum. But I think it's interesting to think about the ways it might be possible to develop writing for pleasure a little bit more on the role that comics can play in that, whether it's through journaling, whether it's through clubs or opportunities to write outside of dedicated curriculum time. There's some definite things that can be teased out of that, I think is really interesting. In my Roundup today. I want to say big, thank you to listeners because those of you who are connected with the podcast on Instagram and on Twitter will have seen me celebrating our 2000 downloads that happened this week. I'm really proud and grateful to listeners for their interest in the podcast. Had some great feedback. on the back of those posts. One example here, Sam Creighton saying that this is a podcast. But anyone who's interested in education and or graphic novels is a total banger week on week. I shared it with my staff at school just a couple of weeks ago. So thanks Sam. For that. So really appreciate that comment. Lots of other comments as well. If you do want to be up to date with things that are happening on the podcast. Then Twitter and Instagram is a great place to do that. you can follow me on Twitter, which is at Lucy underscore Bradley B. R a I D L E Y. and also you can follow the podcast on Instagram at comic underscore boom underscore podcast. From both of those, you'll find out who's on the podcast each week and also some different things, but I'm reading various stories and things like that. So it's a great way to keep up to date. There's also a link in the show notes to the podcast. Padlet. Where everything that's discussed in each episode is kept. So if you don't quite catch anything or you can't remember something that someone's mentioned. You will find it there and you can also I've had some great feedback over the last few weeks about people using the transcripts for accessibility to the podcast so there is that transcript of the conversation if you find it easier to read for whatever reason I had a great weekend At LICAF last weekend Uh there's one more lakes international comics art festival themed episode coming up in a few weeks time and i'll give a round up of what comics i've picked up whilst i was at the festival who i heard speaking and i'll also be speaking to Mary talbot A patron of the festival about her work and her relationship with it So i'll give my recommendations I'll save my recommendations for that bumper edition in a couple of weeks time As always you can support the podcast if you'd like to help keep us on the airwaves by going to kofi.com k o hyphen f i.com forward slash lucy sb There's an opportunity where you can buy some of my comics on there for adult readers or you can also just Put a little few pennies in the pot for the podcast to keep us on the air so thank you for that really appreciate your support That's it for this week you've been listening to comic boom Which is hosted and produced by me lucy starbuck Braidley thanks for listening