Comic Boom - Comics in Education - exploring children's comics writing with academic Helen Jones

0:09

Welcome to comic theme the comics in education podcast. If you are librarian, if you're a teacher, if you're a comics creator, if you're anybody who is interested in the way in which comics and education intersect can support each other. Be mutually beneficial for each other. Then this is the podcast for you. My name is LucyStarbuck Braidley and each week, I'll be joined by a fellow educator, an academic librarian, or a creator of comics to discuss their journey into comics. And provide some inspiration to influence your practice and hopefully shine some light as well on some titles that you can bring into your libraries, into your classrooms, into your homes, and enrich your own reading of comics as well. This week's guest. Is Helen Jones. Helen is an academic researcher. We have some really interesting work into the way in which children interact with each other and interact with the process of making comics. She's currently researching a PhD focused on comics club and the importance of giving children the chance to self publish and create their own comics. Helen was also heavily involved in the creation. Of the book children's literature in action, which I really recommend has been one of the highlighted texts that I've recommended at the end of a previous podcast episode, brilliant collection of writing there. And in that book, there is a longer chapter where Helen talks about her research on developing a comics library in the school. Absolutely excellent work. This is a really brilliant conversation, really, really focused on children, really focused on the creation of comics. Children's work around making their own comics and bringing their own. Voice writing for pleasure. Some really interesting content. I found it absolutely fascinating. And honestly, I could have spoken to Helen all day about it and there's a hotline set up, so I could just phone Helen at whatever I need to do. Ask her questions. That comes to mind because it's really absolutely fascinating. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I do. Here's what Helen has to say.

Lucy: 2:09

Hello Helen. Welcome to Comic Boom.

Helen: 2:12

Hello. Thank you for having me.

Lucy: 2:13

You are very welcome to start the podcast off. I always like to ask people to tell us a little bit about their journey as a comics reader. When did that all start for you? Was it in childhood or a little bit later on?

Helen: 2:27

I love this question because I've been listening to the podcast and hearing everybody's differences, um, and sort of recognizing some patterns similar to mine as well. So I ha I had a really rich diet of comics reading as a child. They were always part of, you know, what I was reading, what I was interested in. I think even when I was actually sort of just learning to read as well. I think similar to Anthony Hinton was speaking on one of your podcasts earlier on about having his parents' peanut books and I had a shelf of peanuts books in my bedroom alongside Rupert The Bear as well, which will be my dad's annuals, from the late forties and fifties. You know, some problematic things in them that actually sort of, the young child sort of got me into thinking a bit about critical literacy, um, but really sort of engaged me into comics. and then as a child as well, I, I used to, I suppose I'm of the generation, sort of in the eighties late seventies, early eighties, where people were still going and buying a comic on a regular basis, down at the news agent so I used to get something called Twinkle. twinkle was a comic. It was, it was aimed at the picture paper, especially for little girls, and published by DC Thompson. but it was just released of gentle comic strips aimed at this very young audience. Um, Featuring this character of Twinkle who introduced the comic. although it sounds like it's from, from a long time ago, it was hugely popular. It ran from 1968, um, until 1999. I didn't realize it was still going until the turn of the

Lucy: 3:52

I've never even heard of it.

Helen: 3:54

No, it's, I was just a little, it was aimed sort of, you know, really young children. Really. I think I probably had it at around the age of four years old, when I was reading it. And it was really simple comic strip stories. and I think lots of comics now are aimed at slightly sort of older children, but this one very much was as younger children. and from there, I suppose I graduated onto, again, going down to my news agents and buying the Beano and the Dandy and the Lesser known Whizzer and Chips. That was also a really popular one as I had. And also reading Tintin and Asterisk, which again, they were sort of my brother's books, but I sort of stole them as much as possible. We swapped'em around and read them together, really. And again, I really enjoyed looking at the artwork, particularly in Tintin by Herge I think that taught me so much about how, how comics work, um, you know, the uses of movement lines. The use of onomatopeia is just, just fantastic in Tintin. And then I think finally the one I was going to mention, I dunno if anybody else has mentioned this as well, so it was Oink comic. So that was published in 1986 and I was about nine years old, so I probably was about the perfect target audience for it. And Oink is a really sort, it was a re of sendup of other comics at the time, sort of really. Sort of subversive in many ways. Um, had comic strips in there from Lou Stringer and Tony husband, from Mark Riley. those of you who listen to Radio Six now will probably know him as a re radio DJ there. And, and also even the young Charlie Brooker,

Lucy: 5:22

Oh, really?

Helen: 5:23

of, yeah, of Black Mirror fame nowadays. but he must have been writing in there and I think it was about sort of 14 years old, But it has sort of lots, gross, but funny and hilarious things that weren't stuff, you know, necessarily very mainstream. So I've got a copy here in front of me that you won't be able to see, but it's, a send up of Michael Jackson, and sort of making fun of him. It's got a comic strip called Peep the Pimple, which is basically a character with a giant spot on the end of his nose, which, which bursts in each comic strip at some point. But it was really subversive and fun and, and made me laugh a lot, I think as a

Lucy: 5:57

That sounds really cool. I have not heard. I'm definitely gonna look into that. That sounds really up my street. In terms of. School Did comics come into the school day at all, or was it very much a sort of separate thing at home? A lot of people kind of report that they're quite separate. I'm wondering what your experience was.

Helen: 6:17

I think they were quite separate for me as well. you know, that's an interesting question to think about because I've always been somebody who's loved art and I've loved drawing and I've loved reading and I love writing and I always enjoy those elements in school. I think they're very much set within different subjects. You know, art was here and drawing was in these lessons, and then you had your English lessons when you did your writing. I don't really ever remember many comics in school. The one I do remember, for those of you who did, G C Ss E French, in the 1980s or nineties, there was a book called Tricoleur. was kind of a set text and that had, in it it's the comics about Fifi Filet, um, and Fifi Filet. It was just to get to get you learning French and I do, they still stay with me and Fifi filet really stays with me. So I think that's, shows actually a power and importance of actually comics in terms of learning. Um, I remember Fifi

Lucy: 7:10

remember the songs from French lessons more than the comics. I say, I can still sing all the songs in French.

Helen: 7:16

uh, yeah, so it's, it's, that's probably the only place I really remember it being part of, you know, my education in school. And I suppose in some ways it was that comics, you know, felt, they felt different. They weren't schooled literacy, they were a sort of separate space of, of reading for pleasure. Um, for me, I

Lucy: 7:35

Yeah, and, and what sort of things do you still read comics for Pleasure? What sort of things are you reading currently?

Helen: 7:40

Yeah, I do. So I suppose, In terms of my comics reading journey, I kind of fizzled out in secondary school reading comics. I wasn't very into superheroes and I didn't really know where to turn, but. I sort of always dipped my toes into comics and probably into graphic novels as I sort of, you know, grew up at, you know, became an adult. You know, I'd read Maus. There's a couple other graphic novels that I read, but I really renewed my interest in reading of comics and graphic novels probably about six years ago. It coincided with me starting an MA in children's literature at Goldsmith's University, but also with my own children reading comics themselves. And I think it really reminded me of my own childhood reading. and I really got into looking at actually what's out here for children at the moment in terms of comics. And I think the big extra boom in America, you know, led by people like, Dav Pilkey, um, with Captain Underpants and then Dogman, and then with Raina Telgemeier made me feel like actually there's, there's so much out here and there's so many different genres now that are really engaging to read. I read comics, I read children's comics, and I read adult comics at the moment as well. But you know, I'm a real massive fan of the Phoenix. big shoutout. I think probably to Jess Bradley Squid bits. That's always my favorite bit. And the bit I turn to, first of all, I like just the complete, surreal humor of it all. Um, and I really love as well the work Jess Bradley has done with Mike Barfield. So the non-fiction comics. Yeah, the day in the life of Poo. And you, I'm really, really, really interested as well in some of the work being done by Molly Knox Ostertag, the Girl From the Sea. That's a beautiful, um, graphic novel that sort of lgbtq plus themes knit as well. Um, the work of Nd Stevenson, so Nimona, and I love the way it's just been made into the animated film as

Lucy: 9:27

I watched that the other day. I really, really enjoyed it.

Helen: 9:30

Yeah, I, I, I just sort of had that crossover as well between comics and I often watch things which are, you know, from comics form on television as well, or vice versa. I watch something on television go, oh, that was actually a comic, first of

Lucy: 9:43

Yeah. There's nothing better than watching a good TV program than finding out as a comic, and you're like, oh, amazing.

Helen: 9:47

so I, what one I think would be as well, the days of the Bagnall summer. So that's, that's one for adults, but as a film, that's fantastic. It was filmed in Bromley where I grew up, which made me love it. And then it made me go back to look at, the graphic novel as well, the Days of the Bagnall summer, which just really brilliant and very, very lo-fi humor throughout it all, about living life in suburbia really. in terms of sort of my adult or more adult reading of graphic novels, Tilly Walden, is a comic maker whose work I really enjoy and some of her work is definitely, aimed at a young adult audience. I mean, she's only in her early twenties herself, but huge prolific. and again, I love her book on a Sunbeam, um, which is, again, she's got themes of lgbtq plus and trans relationships within it, setting this sort of futuristic world, in space. so lots going on there. and then in terms of, Comics that I would say, again, sort of sit in between, for young adults, could be read with children. I really like the work of Isabelle Greenberg.

Lucy: 10:51

Mm-hmm.

Helen: 10:51

Um, so lots of feminist fairytales, stories within stories. I particularly like her graphic novel, the 100 Knights of Hero, which sort of takes sort of the Arabian Knights and twists it round and looks it in a different way. and then finally I'd really recommend, the work of Gareth Brooks. so disclaimer, he is a friend, um, but

Lucy: 11:11

Actually Gareth was how I, well we sort of knew each other through Twitter anyway a little bit. But Gareth recommended that I get you onto the podcast.'cause I had emailed him to ask him some questions, so he's a good one person to bring up because he's how we've come together.

Helen: 11:23

It's how we've met. It's absolutely. His graphic novels, they're, they're really, really fascinating the way the materials that he uses, so they're not just hand drawn, or drawn on a computer. but they're embroidered. His most recent one, the dancing plague also uses Pyrograph, which is kind of like burning, as a way of sort of creating, designs and patterns. It's kind of hard to describe in a way until you actually look at it. So you've got this sort of combination of these sort drawn scenes using, This burning technique with embroidery over the top and the dancing plague is actually set in the medieval times in Strasburg and looks at these sort of collective moments of hysteria where everybody started dancing in the streets and no knew why. So this is actually based on real life, um, historical events at these dancing plagues. Um, Which is kind of fascinating'cause it came out during, COVID or just after sort of the covid. So it's interesting looking at these different types of plague as well, historically that we'd had.

Lucy: 12:22

yeah. That is really interesting. Fascinating. I wanted to move on to ask you a little bit more about where your current sort of relationship may be outside of reading for Pleasure is with comics in terms of it forming part of your academic interests and how that came about and what sort of things you are looking into.

Helen: 12:43

Yeah, absolutely. so as I mentioned earlier, I really sort of restarted my interest. In comics and the use of comics perhaps in education, or in relationship to children's reading of comics when I was doing my masters in children's literature at Goldsmith University. and it's carried on from there. That was just that starting point. And from that point on was this now to become so slowly taken over my life almost. Um, so I'm now three years into my, my part-time PhD all sort of focused on children's comics making. I suppose the, the, the first place I started off was one of the master's modules that I had to do was, called Children's Literature and Action. So it was an action research project, looking at any element exploring children's literature, children's books, children's comics, and sort of putting things into practice around that. and action research. It's a way of researching that aims to implement change and help teachers or practitioners develop their best practice. So again, a lot of sort of my own research and thinking is sort of looking at my own children. And one of the things that I noticed was that my children were coming home from school with these incredibly boring. Learning how to read books despite the fact that they were fluent readers and also that at home, that actually what they really wanted to be reading, was quite often multimodal texts. Reading online, I. And particularly comics. I mentioned Raina Telgemeier earlier, so it was my child, just daughter had just found Raina Telgemeier and got really excited about it and I sort stopped my track support. My children have never brought a comic home from school. And actually when I was a teacher in the classroom, how often did I send comics home or have them as valid form of reading within my classroom? So it kind of led to me questioning. What I'd been like perhaps as a teacher when I was in the classroom. and then questioning a little bit around. What the children are bringing home as well. So I decided as my action research project to set up a comics library in my children's primary school. so I went to them and said, could I, could I do this? Could I set up a comics library in the primary school and just research and see what impact that has on the children? And they said, yes, that's great. You can do it the year three, children. And I was like, fantastic. And I was like, that's four classes. That's 120 children I'm going be researching with. Um, so it finally became quite big all of a sudden, and I had to sort of find ways of collecting the comics, for the children to have in the comics library. So, you know, people were very generous and donating lots of copies of the Phoenix. I wrote off to the Beano and various people, and people were very generous again, sending things through. And I borrowed some money from, the group of friends at the school to collect comics as well for it. And I tried to have a really wide range. So we had, as I said, the Phoenix, we had copies of the Beano, but we also had as many graphic novels as possible that we could have. so there was a whole range of different comics, for the children to read. And this will to really self staff my research into children's reading of comics. Finding out did they want to read them, were they interested? Was this going to have any inf effect or impact on the children as readers? In this year, three age range, so that's seven and eight year olds.

Lucy: 16:04

And what did you find out? What did you observe from doing that?

Helen: 16:08

So it was really interesting. It was, it was a really lovely project to do, and it really did build up sort of community amongst the children around reading. So what happened was I would go in one day a week and the children would come for half an hour to the comics library. The comics would just be out on the tables. They could borrow one to take away if they wanted to. They weren't forced to.

Lucy: 16:30

You will read comics.

Helen: 16:32

Well, that's part of it. You know, reason for pleasure, respect. If you don't want to read it, that's perfectly fine as well. I had to sort of, you know, wait to see, and there were, I think across the whole 120 children. There were two children who didn't particularly want to read or borrow a comic, but I think two out of 120,

Lucy: 16:50

Yeah,

Helen: 16:50

um, I found'em. Other things, you know, here's a magazine. It's kind of like a comic, but to start, But the key things that came out of it really were, particularly as I said, that that role of the comics library and building that community of comics readers. So one of the things that children really liked doing was just swapping and recommending the comics. You know, we've seen how important that is for developing children's reading for Pleasure is that ability to talk about why they like something, why I enjoyed reading it, why you should enjoy reading it too. And I think because a lot of the time they were reading the comics very quickly. If they were able to swap during the sessions and, and share them with each other or take them home one week and come back in. Yeah, go home one week, come back and then swap it over with their friends. Afterwards, and again, when I talk about their friends, they often got together in groups which was sort of around the same interests to, so, you know, just have one group who just wants to sit around the Beano and act out. And they were particularly, Loved reading Banana Man and having to sort of, you know, act it all out together. You'd have others who really would like, sort of sit side by side reading, comics and sharing the jokes. So I'm gonna read you one of the jokes and swapping them, you know, talk about swapping the comics, but they were swapping jokes over with each other as well. And then one of the things as well, I noticed was that sometimes they would be quite critical and think quite carefully about what they were reading too. without me having to sort of go in and tell'em to do so. So I remember one group were reading, reading The Beano, and they're reading the Bash Street Kids. and at the time the Bash Street kids still had the character of Fatty, who's now been renamed Freddy in the B you know, probably for the reasons why, you know, as I'll explain the children we're talking about, but they were, they were looking at. The character of Fatty and they were laughing about it, but then also slightly problematizing it as well.'cause like actually is that right? Should he be called that? And you know, one of them in the end was like, I don't think that's appropriate. so there was lots of talk around what was happening in the comics as well and the comic strips.'cause they could all look at it and they could see it really immediately together. So that was one of the key things that came out of it. I think another key theme that came out was just their increased confidence as readers. so, you know, any sort of statistical measure, you know, could be influenced by other things. But at the start of the project, I got the chance to rate themselves as readers, and it was really positive, actually, you know, 77% of them said they were good to excellent readers, and then 23%, so they were about average. But by the end of the project, so after this 10 week project, there'd been a significant shift in that group that called themselves about average. So that reduced from that 23% until 9% reporting themselves above average, and then 91%. Calling themselves good or excellent readers. There's lots of reasons why this might be, but I think perhaps widening that range of texts, seeing comics as a form of reading, seeing that comics had different genres and different interests within it, helped'em to view themselves as readers in that wider sense and probably make feel more confident as readers as a case.

Lucy: 19:55

Yeah, that's really interesting. I know that that quite often when children are asked in a school setting about their reading behaviors, they often frame it in terms of The reading that they do at school. So if you are, if you're at school when you're asked the question, you'll talk about the reading that you do at school, the reading that you think school is interested in. So it is very difficult within that school setting to get children to report on the kind of home literacies that they have. Maybe reading in a different language, maybe reading comic books, which they don't see as part of the school day. So it's really interesting that that shift. Of bringing the comics into school may have even they, you know, possibly they were reading comics at home already. We, I dunno if you know that or not. But it, legitimizes that as a valid reading activity as something that readers do when it happens in the school day. I dunno what your thoughts are on that. These are, these are my opinions.

Helen: 20:44

No, it was really interesting. When I go back and sort of look at the research and the data, I remember one of the children saved me, oh. I like reading comics at school'cause at at home my dad reads Marvel, but I'm not interested in Marvel and I like the comics here. So I think it was interesting that it was about actually perhaps the variety of

Lucy: 21:00

yeah,

Helen: 21:01

seeing that actually. You know, I'm, I'm very adamant about this, about comics being a medium in their own right, not a genre. And I still battle that some places. but actually seeing to the children and go, yes, look, these are funny comics. Or here's a comic about, you know, immigration, which is quite serious. Or here's a non-fiction comic. But actually there's something for everybody. And I think it is, it's about widen that sense of what is reading. You are right. Schooled literacy can be much, very much about, here's, here's a text. Now read it and if we widen our sense of what is reading into Think. Okay. Reading is about looking at comics and looking at visual literacy. Reading is about, how do I understand perhaps an animation or a film As I'm watching and seeing reading in that wider sense, we develop children's understanding that reading is about comprehension, it's about our own interpretation, and it's not just about being able to pick out a word. you know, an adjective from a text to do a comprehension paper.

Lucy: 21:58

Yeah, I completely agree. and you noticed in this project as well that children began to almost spontaneously create their own comics. This is something that I've noticed when I was a teacher as well, when I started to introduce comics into the classroom. More so I felt distinct from, you know, the levels at which children might write their own stories as inspired by prose books that we're looking at in class. I found it much more significant amount of children when we started to look at comics, would then go on to do writing for pleasure and to to create them on their own. What did you observe in terms of that kind of sparking the creativity?

Helen: 22:35

Yeah, absolutely. That was a main sort of finding really from this comics library was the idea that comics readers became comics makers, and absolutely. More so than I, I think that's my own teaching. When I was in school, children would always want to bring me in pictures that they drew rather than a piece of writing that they've done. And, and I think comics brings those two things together and there's something very, something very accessible about it. And some of my later research that I've done, the children have very much talked about the role comics have in them being able to produce narratives. More quickly. You know, they're not having to describe the setting. They can draw the setting. those World building elements are very visual. and that makes it very accessible, I think in terms of I can create a narrative perhaps more quickly. Their first steps into comic making are often taking characters as well and copying them and trying them out and seeing, oh, what can I do? Or how can I sort of take this character of Dog Man and put him in a different situation or make him do the things I want to do? So it's almost sort of like playing around, with these little characters on the page going Right, I want to take Dog Man and make him do something else instead.

Lucy: 23:41

Yeah, you haven't had to start from scratch. They're kind of, it's the spinoff series that they're working on.

Helen: 23:45

There was just something so, so much about it. So I was volunteering at the, so London comics and Zine Fair this weekend, and I was running their sort of all ages reading room and even there. Some children were bringing in the comics they'd made and they wanted to show it to somebody and they wanted to talk about it, and they wanted to sort of, you know, just to, just to show it to someone and go, this is my comic I've made. And that's sort of real joy in that they've created something that they feel, you know, is this lovely little narrative I've made and I enjoyed making it, and now I want to share it with somebody else too so I think that's something that's really important and it's definitely something that I've really looked at and thought about in my subsequent research and subsequent, work in schools.

Lucy: 24:27

And to what extent, I'm kind of jumping ahead here'cause I was gonna ask you this question a little bit later on, but it seems to, to fit in here in terms of that kind of publishing of children's work, how important. Is that, I know you do, you know, in your comics club that you run now that their children sell their own comics and that kind of self-publishing, I'm really interested in, in your view, how important that is to children's self-perception as being writers.

Helen: 24:55

Yeah, absolutely. So sort of give it some context. you know, I run a comics club in, in a school. it's the same school I did the comics library with as well. And I run that once a year for about 10 weeks. and it's with a group of nine to 10 year olds. So that's, that's year five children. Mainly, sometimes it's bigger but around about that age group and the whole aim of the project is for the children to create, often collaboratively in groups that own comics and sell them as a comics fair. and this is very much about becoming published, understanding that publishing can be done quite cheaply, quite easily. It's not having to sort of send something off and create a sort of hardback book, but it's about getting your voice heard. So it's very much based on a model, of Z's culture, or small press publishing. It could be seen as quite contentious, I think sometimes with children's publishing that we sell their work. So the children do sell them. We don't sell them for a profit, at least pro, I probably sell them for a bit of a loss sometimes I think about it. Um, but do, do not get rich from it. And that's, you know, that's not part of it, but it is about sustainability. So the money that the children make from selling their comics, goes back into buying all the resources, for the club. So I give them all a sketchbook, for example, at the beginning of the club starting, I have to buy all the pens and pencils, for them to work on as well. So all of those things, obviously all aren't materials cost money. So the amount of money that they make at the moment from selling their comics. That's normally enough to fund, the comics club for the next year. So it's all about sustainability for me that I can afford to keep it going as well. I think that's a really lovely way of doing it so it's kind of passing that love of comics down and onwards. And actually for the children, Again, I had to sort of really ethically think about should we sell the comics? Should we just print them and, and hand them out? What's it going to be like for them having to sell their comics in a public arena, in terms of their confidence and their sort of worry? Is anybody going to buy them or not? So ethically, I really sort of deliberated around that myself, but it's a really. Become a really crucial part of the process of my comics club. and actually sort of in terms of my research, it's his one that children highlight quite often as the most enjoyable part of the

Lucy: 27:12

Hmm.

Helen: 27:13

I think the key things, it gives'em something to work, work towards. It gives'em a real end goal. We know that comics can take a very long time to make, and sometimes it is a scrabble to get these comics completed and ready in time for the comics fair. but they do it, they always manage to get to that deadline. But one of the things as far that I think is really lovely is that the children really, they, you can see they're nervous at the start of the comics fair, but when people come and show interest and whether it's, you know, parents or their friends, younger, younger siblings or younger people from other eight year groups, the teachers who come along, you can see just their pride in what they've created really sort of grows and you see them growing in terms of the feelings that, you know, actually what I've created here, my narrative that I've made, my stories that I want to tell. So not what I've been told to write by, by a school or write by somebody else, but my stories that I've worked with my friends collaboratively to make. Are important and people want to read them and people want to listen to them. I've got a lovely quote somewhere from one child who told me, like, at the end of the comics fair, I felt like a pro comics maker. Um, so it's, it is, it really is a lovely celebration, for all the children. Giving children that chance to publish their work and to also have a platform to share it. So it's not just about publishing. You know, here's a final thing I've created, but it's about going and where's the audience. So finding the audience for the children, getting'em to share it, it's sort of amplifying their voices.

Lucy: 28:40

You mentioned the word collaboratively there. What have you noticed about children working together on these projects? Do they, do they tend to do that or are they more working individually?

Helen: 28:50

so yes, the idea of working collaboratively, is like, again, a key part of my comics club, and something I've really encouraged the children to do. So with everything within my comics club, I'm not. Going to force them to do it. So, as I said, I, you know, I get them to come up with their own narratives. I mean, I show them different comic techniques, but the stories they want to tell are completely up to them. I don't, don't force a topic or a, a narrative onto them. And again, I ask them to work collaboratively in groups, to produce their comic. In very practical terms, this is often about the timescale that we have. If I ask each child to produce a comic themselves in 10 weeks individually, they would really struggle to do so. But working collaboratively, they can all take turns, do different parts of the comic. Maybe somebody creates the cover, maybe somebody creates one of the different comic strips. and actually most of the time I think, 95% of the time, that works really well. Sometimes there's little bits of falling out. Sometimes people move from one group to another. but 95% of the time they work very well together collaboratively. And it's really interesting watching them work collaboratively as well. because I do so in different ways. Last year I had a, a group, who worked incredibly well, collaboratively together. So they were three boys who joined the comics club, on the recommendation of their teacher because they were already making their own comics, at playtime. anytime they had in class as well. When they had a bit of free time in the classroom, they were also writing their own novels. Linked into this comics. They also had their own publishing house name, that they wanted to have. but they worked really beautifully together, collaboratively. So they talked through the stories that they wanted to create together. So if you looked to them, first of all, it wouldn't look like necessarily when you're observing them that they were doing a huge amount of work. They were just sort of, Chatting away, leaning back on their chairs a little bit, and you'd go over them and go, how? How are you getting on? Are you going to start doing any drawing at any point? But they'd always have to talk for their stories together. And actually we sort of went over and talked to'em. Were like, they're like going, right? Yes. So this, we are just sort of working out this bit of a story. We're having to work out this bit. They also shared the workload. so you know, one person might be the person who was coming up the stories and then somebody would start drawing it down, or their take turns drawing as well. and this is something I've seen, it's, Brenda Marjorie Wilson, who wrote a book called Teaching Children to Draw, but they talk about something called graphic dialogue. so where children are taking turns, drawing, and how it sort of becomes a dialogue together. So I think sometimes their dialogues were verbal, but sometimes their dialogues, I would say we're taking place in the page as well.

Lucy: 31:30

That's really cool that I feel like that's something that That happens at my, in my house as well. Like if we are that sometimes I'll draw with my sons and we'll, we'll make something together. And that's a good way of describing it, that kind of, yeah, you are, you are almost taking it in turns to build the story, but you are, you are all adding different elements to what you're doing. One of the things that you've written more broadly about the writing process, and about how, you know, children can use the writing process or the process of writing comics in particular to sort of make meaning of the world around them or to reflect and solidify their identities. Maybe, I don't know if we've used the right words there. What does that mean?

Helen: 32:10

Yeah, it's something I'm just very interested in is because I'm not. Telling the children what to put in their stories, and they become very interested in what they do want to put into their stories, um, within the club. So, and I often get, you know, they're huge variety, but they are often pulling on, I suppose, a lot of their time, their own cultural interests. so this year, for example, in the club I had. Two sort of adaptions of something. There's a game on Roblox called Doors. I don't play Roblox on a regular basis, but I know a lot of children who do. So I had two comics this year, both on the theme of doors where you sort of have to go for a door and then something else happens. It's sort of like a portal as far as I could work out. but again, as I said, sort of using their interests of you know, their own popular culture, but it's not just of trying to. Replicate it. It's playing around with it and I said a version of doors. So one of the version of doors was Doors and Pokemon. So it was taking two different things that they were interested in and putting them together instead of playing around with them again. I had another group of children last year who their comic was called Plastic Invasion. And they created a comic about the YouTube's films they enjoyed watching, which were all about little plastic soldiers fighting each other. and then they used this as a platform. They were talking very much about it going, well, this is going to be, you know, my storyboards or my plan for my own animations I'm going to be making next. I find children often use comics as a way of interpreting something, but then going, actually I can change this into another medium as well. Um, So there's this some something's called transmedia storytelling. So it starts off as a film, I'm gonna make it into a comic, but then I'm gonna make it into my own film again. I think what I think is very interesting about it is children take these tools from popular culture and their own cultural interests, and I would say what they're doing is Re-story-ing, this idea that they can adapt and play around with their own interests, or change them. I think they often use'em to interrogate the world a little bit around them to go, okay, so I like this. I'm interested in it. What happens if I play around with it? So again, I think one of the things I find children do is the group of children I work with, are very diverse in terms of their, their backgrounds, in terms of their nationalities, in terms of their identities. And I think the characters they represent very much reflect themselves as well. so there's some work being done by the writing for Pleasure Center, for example, looking into writing realities and do children's. Get the chance to represent their own interests, and themselves within the pieces of writing or, you know, in terms of comics and the comics that they're creating. And I think that's something that's really important that in allowing children to tell their own narratives, they can place themselves or their own interests or their cultural identity into the comics too. And I think finally, I would say sometimes I find the children are actually Kind of being slightly subversive and thinking about the world around them in the comics they're making. So one group of children, uh, last year made a comic called Planet of School. Our planet of school was set in space, but each planet was a different academic subject. And actually what the comic was doing is really interrogating. I mean, I, this is my reading of it as a reader, um, but it was interrogating themes of creativity in schools. So the children all got sucked into the de detention zone. The detention zone was. It was black and white. It was no color. It was all very austere. And what they were searching for was, the realm of creativity, which ends up being this sort of heaven or nirvana like place that they finally found, which incredibly colorful. And they were like, have we found heaven? It was like, no, you found the realm of creativity. And when I talked to these children, Afterwards just about sort of, you know, what do you think about the role of comics in school or the role of art? They were all talking to me about we don't have enough art, we don't have enough creativity within the curriculum. And I was, you know, maybe I was putting two and two together, but I was like, actually this is what your comic was all about. It was about for you, creativity was what you wanted to be doing. It was your sort of nirvana. And it kind of reflected their own sort of questioning about what school was about. So maybe I've read too much into that, but I do think children use the comic making process or the chance to tell their own stories to maybe clap back or talk back to the world around them a little bit too.

Lucy: 36:33

That's really fascinating. It's such a rich resource to actually look at not just the process of creation, but actually look at the finished product and to read that as part of informing your research. That's really, really interesting. I had one question. you know, when you have like a kernel of a thought, I'm probably not gonna be very good at actually articulating what I'm actually wanting to ask But I keep thinking around, becoming a fan of comics and that quite often, Rather than just being something that you would read every now and again, children can become quite deeply, and adults obviously, can come quite deeply engrossed in comics reading as something that's quite central to their identity. They, it's that kind of fandom, is what they wanna talk about, their clothes. You don't wanna have the characters on their clothes. They wanna draw the characters. Centralized, the kind of fact that they're a fan of this particular comic or this particular, creator. And I just wondered does that. Help to support their reader identity or their perception of themselves as a reader or the amount that they read. And is that something that could be used to support children's sort of reading development? So I don't really know what my question is, but I just wonder what you think about that or if that's something that you've observed or something that you've read about in your research around the subject. Because it's not something that I've been able to find out much about when I've been reading. Reading around kind of children's reading habits and comics. Is it that the sort of fandom element doesn't seem to come up very often?

Helen: 38:05

Yeah, I suppose a lot of fandom research looks at sort of what's happening online, and I think online is always a gray space with children. Because of the platforms that you might be using or looking at not being age appropriate or you know, whether they're signed up to it or not. You know, also these things have sort of age limits on them. And I think that's, it's an interesting thing to think about in terms of actually children's fandom because. Absolutely. I would say, if I go back to look at my comics library research, you know, that's an enjoyment of swapping and sharing comics, books with people who have the same interests as you, was hugely important to those children and finding actually, yeah. I really love this one too. And I want you to read the next one and I want you to look at this one and now we're gonna draw the pictures and we're going to act out together. so I think

Lucy: 38:52

Yeah, or play on the playground. Play with those characters on the playground, like do role play and that sort of thing.

Helen: 38:58

Absolutely. It's interesting you mentioned role play, because one of the things I think about a lot when the children are making their comics in comics club and quite often sort of taking. Elements, as I said from Pokemon or you know, they have a shared interest in manga, but it's almost as though they are role playing on the page. So, you know, in terms of children's role play, yes, they might be doing out on the playground. We might see that sort of diminish when children get to about sort of eight or nine or tens. They might see role playing on the playground as a little bit. Baby-ish, but I think they just take it straight into their comics making. They just take it straight onto the page and actually just start to role play games out on the page together and telling these stories. It's just another form of role playing and world

Lucy: 39:42

That. I've never thought of it from that perspective before, but yeah, I really agree.

Helen: 39:46

I suppose the one thing I think about identity and fandom is, is that danger of some people may be feeling left out and I think. That's the thing that I found as a teenager when I felt, you know, suddenly trying to integrate into that world of comic shops, which felt

Lucy: 40:03

Mm.

Helen: 40:04

superhero and male dominated to me as maybe a 13, 14 year old teenage girl. you know, slightly overwhelming and sort of slightly stared at when you entered these shops. So I think there's a real question around how fandom can be more inclusive, I think. As I said, you know, it's problem problematic for children'cause the internet is, is an ethically difficult area to explore. In terms of fandom on the internet with children. But I think, you know, there are lovely spaces, and websites. You know, the Beanos got a fantastic website, for example, that children can do that in. The Phoenix, I think, you know, the Phoenix got a lovely letters page, which seems, you know, it's been a mainstay of comics historically for a very, you know, children's comics historically, for a very long time. I just love flicking to the, the letters page and seeing the children who've written in and drawn the characters.

Lucy: 40:54

right. My son was in the Phoenix, fan pages the other day, and it was like the best thing that's ever happened to him in his life.

Helen: 41:03

It's, it's brilliant. But then, you know, again, I'm going to complain because then it gets too popular. You know, I took my daughter to go and get a book signed by Jamie Smart. And we had to wait in the queue for two hours and. So it's like, fandoms gone crazy here. Now I can't, you know, so after two hours we finally got to Jamie Smart. He was, who was, I have to say, you know, very stoically signing all of these copies of Bunny versus Monkey. I suppose, I think one place I find that I do feel it's quite an inclusive space. I think, you know, I talked about earlier about lgbtq plus books and comics, and I feel that's a really inclusive space, for a lot of. Young adults or children who are just starting to think about, you know, their gender, or their identity just in relationship to that. And I think things like, you know, Alice Osmond, uh, and Heart Stopper is just a fantastic example of that sort of community. You know, people coming together over a love of these characters. And again, that's also off as a web comic and obviously into the graphic novels and they get into the TV series, a bit like Nimona. and I think that's it's, it's lovely, these sort of safe spaces that are created, for people to be able to feel, you know, their gender or their identity is

Lucy: 42:14

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I really agree with what you're saying around that. Sometimes you can feel excluded from that fandom. And I think definitely from, from even just as an adult setting out to do this podcast, I'm very aware that I have. N I'm not, you know, I'm not a massive, I've read, I've watched lots of the films of Marvel films, but in terms of comics, I'm not a massive comics reader of the sort of superhero genre. There's a lot of those kind of really famous, key texts that people refer to a lot of the time when they're talking to me that I haven't read. And I'm always very honest that I haven't read them on the podcast. But there are times when you think, oh, I do. I, I don't really, I don't. I might do, I like comics. I haven't read any of these other stuff that other people are talking about. So yeah, there is that flip side as well. As much as it might include people, it also

Helen: 43:01

I think that's really important point.'cause it, it goes back to actually to validate that, you know, comics are an art form, not a genre. You know, we've all gotta have genres we like or not. There are gonna be types of films I like or films I don't like watching. And everybody's got that validity and their tastes around what they're interested in and it's, I think it's always worth dipping your toes in. I mean, I, as I said, I don't do marvel. I. You know, I, I struggled to see, to watch the films and various different things, but I have to say I Spider-Man in the Spider Verse. I absolutely adore.

Lucy: 43:33

can't get enough of it. I, I,

Helen: 43:36

Um, so again, it's just, I think because it plays with the idea of comics so much and I was like, actually maybe I will dip my toes into that actually going to look at the Spider-Man and the Spider verse, Marvel Comics, um, and give it a go. And I was like, it's, it's always worth dipping your toe in, and giving it a try and see if you like it. And I think sometimes I find that with people who say they don't like comics at all, it's just because they. Don't know how to read them or don't know where to start. And again, I think it's about saying, well, we'll dip your toes in, or this is what you do when you're reading it. You know, you have to move your eyes in this or you know, or you have to think about it in a different type of way. And trying to find that there is something for most people.

Lucy: 44:18

I feel like I've got so much more that I could talk to you about, but it is coming to the end of our session today. I wondered if you've got two or three. Takeouts to just leave people, listening to this podcast, things to think about. I think there's lots of things that we've covered today that people are gonna find really interesting. if you've got a couple of things just in summary that you'd like to leave us with.

Helen: 44:41

Yeah. I think it's just to reiterate some of the points that I've been making. First of all, I think I. For all educators. I would say value comics as an art form in their own right. You know? this is a medium and I would say as well, that's going from strength to strength. there's something for everybody, so I'd really think about if it's something you're unsure about using in the classroom, you know, Have a look back over these podcasts. Listen to the people, what they're talking about, and try and find something that would be for you or something go, Ooh, I could use this to teach in the classroom. or perhaps I can make this part of my own reading diet as a reading teacher. My second point would be, I would really suggest if you can or if you want to set up a comics club in your school. I have say, setting up my comics club, although incredibly hard work is also one of the best things I have ever done. And when I talk about my work in a comics club with other people, I always get parents saying to me, I wish we had a comics club for my children in my school. you know, that chance for children to be creative perhaps outside of the curriculum. And the curriculum constraints, to tell their own stories, to publish their own work and, and to share it with others. So that's something I would really, really recommend everybody to try and give it a go if you can. and, you know, if you want advice or help with it, I'm happy to talk to people or give any guidance about running comics, clubs. and then thirdly, I mean, linked into that is just really allowing children to create their own narratives and publications and see themselves as authors. And the real importance of allowing children's voices to be heard and valued, I think is, is absolutely crucial.

Lucy: 46:22

Those are three brilliant points. Thank you so much. And finally, if we were to add one comic or book to our to be read piles tomorrow, what would you recommend that we add to our list?

Helen: 46:35

so I, this is the question again. I know that people always try and fudge by recommending

Lucy: 46:41

people always trying to get more than

Helen: 46:43

I am not going to be sneaky. I have chosen one book. I have been a little bit sneaky'cause obviously, you know, I'm, I'm studying comics academically as well as running comics club in the school. So I have chosen a book, which is a PhD dissertation, written in comics format. now that doesn't sound exciting, but this book is incredibly exciting if you are interested in how comics work or thinking about things in different ways. and the book I've chosen is unflattening, by Nick Sousanis.

Lucy: 47:12

when you, when you started your intro, I was hoping it was gonna be that exciting. Brilliant. Tell us more.

Helen: 47:17

Yeah, it, it's a fabulous book. He looks at the relationship between words and image. He talks about how this can get us to think in different ways. And basically as a thesis, I mean, the main premise is kind of argues against the dominance of the written word in terms of academic thought. Um, and encourages us to see thinking as something which is not just about words, but it's about visuals. It's. It's about the interaction of all of these elements. And it's just full of amazing ideas and it's written as a comic, so you can just go back and look at his amazing drawings throughout. And it's one that I just dip into and return to again and again. And it always challenges me to think in different ways and outside the box.

Lucy: 47:55

That's brilliant. Thank you so much for that recommendation. And, Nick Sousanis has also got really good website with lots of resources on as well. And he's doing a lot of work at the moment. I know on, Accessibility of comics for visually impaired peoples. There's, there's a lot of really interesting things that he's got on his website about that as well. I'd love to have him on the podcast. I might, I haven't invited him yet. I'm, I'm building up to it. He seems very approachable actually. Well, thank you so much, Helen, for coming on the podcast. We're sharing your vast knowledge and experience reading all of your work, gave me so much to think about. So thank you so much for. Coming on and sharing that with us.

Helen: 48:31

No, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.

Lucy: 48:34

Thank you.

48:37

There we have it. Thank you so much, Helen, for taking the time to talk to me, I've said earlier on I found it. Absolutely fascinating has just opened up a whole world of thinking about the content of children's writing and what that can tell us. About how they view the world and the things that they want to say. That's absolutely made me think really carefully about the way in which children's writing and then writing for pleasure can include comics and the kind of vital role that comics can play in that. Absolutely fascinating. Helen gave a shout out there for Jess Bradley, in the Phoenix particular reference to our work in the Phoenix. And Jess Bradley is actually guest on the podcast next week. co guest for the first time next week, we'll have two guests at once. Very exciting. she'll be joined by her co-creator of the agent moose series Mo O'Hara and they talk about how they work together is a really brilliant opportunity to learn more about that collaborative process actually really linking into what Helen's been saying today about the collaborative nature of comics as well. So, just a heads up for Jess Bradley and next week, really excited about that. All of the titles that Helen mentioned will be under her name in the podcast Padlet. So you can find those don't worry about running for a piece of paper was listening to the podcast. They are all there, and you can find the link to that Padlet. In the show notes. Something new for season three that I've mentioned a few times now that is now a ko-fi site. K O hyphen F i.com forward slash Lucy SB. That's K O hyphen F i.com forward slash Lucy SB. And on that Kofi site, you can support the podcast, help us to stay on the airways. There are costs associated with. You know, getting out there on just Spotify, being hosted on the internet and it will be great to have some support if you have enjoyed the content. So you can do that in two ways on that site, either by just popping some money in the pot. Or by buying one of my comics. That are there for adult readers. If you'd be interested, have a little look and you can see a little bit for the art style. Some example pages on that Kofi site. My recommendation this week is all going to be focused on writing as well. And somebody that I'd love to get on the podcast. And another academic Lynda Barry. Linda is an American academic works in colleges, university level education, and really focuses on her work on. So-called non-writers people who don't think they can write people who don't think they can draw it and bringing out their creativity and her book syllabus is a selection of lesson plans. all about how to bring creativity out of people. It's beautiful book. It's all made with collage texts. Ballpoint pens, doodles different notes. When you first flipped through you think what is there? This isn't a syllabus. This isn't a lesson plan. This is crazy. But when you sit down and read it, it's stunning and it goes really brilliant ideas of how to support children, adults, anyone who thinks that they're not a writer to bring out their creativity and help them to find their voices. A really excellent title really recommend that one. That's it from me today. Thank you so much for listening. as usual. you can get in contact with the podcast via Twitter. You can reach out to me at Lucy underscore Braidley. Or you can join the comic boom Instagram account at comic underscore boom underscore podcast. Love to hear from you. You can also write your view, share the podcast, give a personal recommendation to a friend. if you've already written a review, feel free, don't limit yourself to just one. You can review every single episode if you wish. And that's really important to get their podcast in front of people who are also going to be interested in the same content. So, thanks so much for listening. My name is Lucy Starbuck Bradley. I am the producer and host of Comic Boom podcast. Thanks for listening.