Comic Boom - Comics in Education - with cartoonist Marc Jackson

0:06

Hello, and welcome to comic boom, the comics and education podcast. If you're interested in the ways that comics can be used in the classroom, then this is the podcast for you. My name is Lucy Starbuck Braidley. And each week I'll be joined by a fellow educator an academic, a librarian or a creator of comics to discuss their journey into comics. And provide some inspiration to influence your practice. And today I am joined by Marc Jackson. Marc is a cartoonist living and working in Macclesfield with his wife and children. Uh, he's created comics and characters for Beano ACEs weekly. Hey kids, comics. A whole host of comics magazines, including the Phoenix. And in 2017, he was awarded a grant from the arts council to create a comic. Here comes cat Stevens that was published by the lakes international. Comics art festival, we've had lots of guests on the podcast that are linked in some way to LICAF it's such a huge event. So yeah, another one here today with Marc, he's also been involved in the project that Hester was talking about last week in schools. Marc specializes in comics for all ages and runs workshops in schools, libraries, and at comics festivals. Around the country. He also runs room for comics with his wife, which is a comics art studio. Which is dedicated to his passion for comics and teaching the joys of cartooning. I talked to Marc today about lots of different things. Some of our usual questions around his influences. Lots of new and interesting names that we haven't heard before. And an interesting story coming into comics a little bit later in life, and also some really great, just practical starting points in terms of how to get children drawing and breaking down those barriers. So a great episode. Thanks. Very much to mark for spending time chatting to me. Here's what he had to say.

Lucy: 1:54

Hi Mark. Welcome to Comic Boom. Thank you so much for coming onto the podcast today. We always like to start off by asking, guests to tell us a little bit about their journey as a comics reader. When did that all start for you? What were the first sort of comics that you started reading?

Marc jackson: 2:10

My first introduction to comics were that you were getting the news agents. And I was very fortunate that I came over time when the news agents had lots of comics on the shelves. but I distinctly remember, my dad buying for me a comic called The Eagle and he, he would have that when he was younger. And in 1981 or 1982, it got relaunched, as a bit of a mixture of comics and like photo strip, kind of comics, you know, like with, scenes that were photographed. And I remember him bringing that home and giving it me and telling me that I used to have this comic or a version of this comic when I was your age. you are now gonna get this every week. So I distinctly remember that moment.

Lucy: 2:53

It was Literally passed down father to son,

Marc jackson: 2:56

Yeah. Literally, you know, cause the Eagle had it charact called Dan Dare, and so Dan Dare sort of connected with me with my love of kind of, you know, star Wars and space and that kind of thing.

Lucy: 3:05

So it was the, content of the stories, the subject matter of the stories, that was the first of thing to pull you in.

Marc jackson: 3:10

Yeah. I would've then you looked through it and found what I liked, you know, in inside cuz it was a real mix of, stories and styles. But it probably helped that, you know, sort of Dan was right on the, on the front cover. and again, there were spaceships, uh, and that connected with me. But I, yeah, so I distinctly remember that, and then I had Star Wars comics cause they, they were around, you know, and, and these are all kind Marvel UK would put out, star Wars comics. So initially it would be, adaptations of the films. And then when the films, you know, when that was done, then there were new comics, with new stories. And, and I really, I was fascinated by that. becasue it was like wow more star wars, this is great.

Lucy: 3:50

And how did that progress? I know quite often, so is this is your sort of a primary age range at this point?

Marc jackson: 3:55

Yeah. Sort of like eight, nine, kind of 10. It was like, early eighties Going into the news agents after school, getting a little bag of sweets or something like that. And then there we were, all the comics

Lucy: 4:06

Back when there was penny sweets.

Marc jackson: 4:08

have the penny tray.

Lucy: 4:10

White chocolate fish and chips. That's my favorite. That's.

Marc jackson: 4:13

One of my greatest moments was when the, I went on a Friday, to have the little penny tray. That must have been my, the little treat. You can go on a Friday. and I remember, I think I, I was on my own, but I dunno whether I was, I, you know, just, and, and the news said to me on a Friday, my comic would come on a Saturday morning, do you want your comic? And I was, what did you mean? Do I want my comic? It comes tomorrow. He went, no, it's here now. And I was like, what? You know, because it didn't get delivered to the news agent on a Saturday morning, it got delivered to me. And I remember that and he handing it over and I, so as you can imagine, where was I? The following Friday has my wait till Saturday when I can have my, now that literally will have been all I was thinking about. And, you know, a combination of great moments. And then when it came crashing down, when he was like, you know, well, it's not here yet, or, no, it won't be until tomorrow morning, kind of thing. So,

Lucy: 5:09

That's brilliant and I know reading can dip in sort of the secondary age, especially reading for pleasure, can, the rates of reading for pleasure can go down in that secondary age. Did that happen for you or did the love for comics, keep you going through your teenage

Marc jackson: 5:24

I was certainly reading comics. I dunno how much, how many books I was probably reading. But I didn't stop reading comics. Um, you know, uh, and, and, and when I look at, the things that are in my collection, you know, still, now, obviously, you know, cause who throws away comics? The things that I bought then that I was reading, like for instance, Frank Miller's, the Dark Knight Returns, which I, you know, I remember reading in my dad's, uh, Sunday magazine of this new version of Batman, this dark kind of reimagining a Batman by this guy called Frank Miller, I hadn't heard of. And there it was in my dad's Sunday magazine. It's like all these amazing drawings and this big article about comics, about this thing that I loved that at the time you kinda think, oh gosh, other people read these as well, you know, and this is an article about them in my, in the Sunday magazine. What's going on here? Actually look at that comic now and read it now. It's incredibly dense and serious and the language and the content and I was like reading this when I was kinda like, you know, 12, but I was there for the drawings, for the visuals. You could have put anything in front of me. If it looked good, I would read it, or at least I would read the words, whether I was understanding it all, who knows. But I was there to look at these fantastic drawings.

Lucy: 6:36

And when you're thinking about the sort of comics that you read as an adult, are you still drawn by the artwork?

Marc jackson: 6:41

I would struggle to read some something that I didn't like how it looked. The artist comes first for me. Because, that was how I got into comics. I didn't get into comics, because I love to read. I got into comics cause I love to draw.

Lucy: 6:55

It's really interesting how people can come from such different angles to the same thing and have the same love and the same passion, but it's actually inspired by different perspectives. And some people it's like, the two can never be separated. It is all part of the same thing. But, I do think that there clearly there's, there's people who are drawn by one thing or the other. And so who are some of your favorite comic artists? If you were gonna give us, you know, people to check out who, who've really inspired you and who you continue to, to look at, who would you recommend?

Marc jackson: 7:26

there were people like, Sergio Aragones who is the creator of, a comic series called Groo the Wanderer. He was very cartoony and what drew me to him was that hi, his comics, when I discovered they were being put out by Marvel, but they didn't look anything like a,, you know, all the other Marvel comics cause it was just incredibly cartoony. And I was like, what is this? So I instantly, I was like, I've gotta have that. I dunno what this is about in terms of the content. You know, it was a kind, it was a little bit like, a cartoon version of Conan the Barbarian, that kinda thing. So that wasn't really my kind thing, but it was just these amazing drawings and the energy. and so I was a huge fan. And then I must have noticed that he also did. All the little drawings in the margin in Mad Magazine, which I, used to get a few issues of every now and then when I found it., and Mad Magazine did all like the parodies of all, the popular films and TV shows. One of the things I distinctly remember again was being in Germany, on holiday with my parents, and seeing the. Empire strikes back issue of Mad Magazine, with the parody of that film in there. That was all in German. And just wanting to get it because it just looks so amazing. And it was this film that I loved and my favorite film, but drawn in this caricature kind of cartoony style that was just blowing my mind. But I think my dad must have said, I'm not buying you that It's all in German. anyway, years to come. not, the German version, but I did end up getting that, copy of my magazine eventually. And then Bill Waterson, has another huge inspiration on me. Who, who was the creative? Calvin Hobbs, which is just like the greatest comic strip ever.

Lucy: 9:09

I love Calvin and

Marc jackson: 9:10

Ah, it's just the drawings again. You know what, what I loved about Calvin and Hobbs as well as the incredible drawings. Was the fact that it was funny. So I looked forward to reading it cause I knew it was gonna make me laugh. Calvin Hubs can make you literally laugh out loud. My dad would read it in the paper, as he was getting ready to go to work. And he would leave before we would go leave to go to school. And then, he would pass at me or he would just laugh and then pass at me to Arena. So that was like a, again, another shared experience. And just now, you know, I can pour over those. I can read them or I can just sit there and just look at them, because they're just beautiful. so those guys and, Lou Stringer, who was working for Marvel uk. And I discovered his work in like my copies of Transformers and Action Force each week. And again, I gravitated to him cause he was in this comic that was drawn in a, with all the stories were drawn in a more realistic fashion. but then he had a little comic strip on the inside from page, that looked cartoony. So I was like, oh, I draw like that. That's the thing. And so I would, I would read that first. Every issue I got, I would just read Lou's little four panel strip, whether it be Combat Colin or Robo Capers, or Macho Man, all this. And I've been very fortunate that I've got to meet Lou and, and become friends with Lou over the past, few years which has been fantastic. So yeah, my 12 year old, you know, again, these are cliches, but my 12 year old brain would just like, what? You actually met Stringer and, and you actually are friends with him. That's just, I don't understand.

Lucy: 10:41

Yeah.

Marc jackson: 10:42

Yeah. And then it's kinda what I would at the time have called the American answer to Stringer was a guy called Fred Hembeck. And he used to do, all these little, comic strips, for, for various Marvel things. And again, he had a, a, a cartoon style, all four of those guys. And I apologize that it's all guys.

Lucy: 11:02

It's actually quite interesting cuz it is something that I'm really keen, I'm very keen on the making sure that the podcast has a good balance of male and female and as much diversity as possible. Cuz I think whereas perhaps in the past there hasn't, hasn't been there that that it is there now and it's really important to kind of represent that for sure.

Marc jackson: 11:18

rattle off, female cartoonist now that I'm a huge fan of, you know, like Tor Freeman. Jackie Davis and, Kate Beaton and, Lisa Hannawalt and all these people that, you know, they're all amazing female cartoonists.

Lucy: 11:35

how does this journey go from being an avid fan of comics? Not everyone that's an avid fan of comics then goes on to actually become a cartoonist themselves.

Marc jackson: 11:45

Right.

Lucy: 11:45

but you've managed to navigate that journey. How did, that happen?

Marc jackson: 11:49

Well, It, it's relatively recent to, to be honest. That's what I said I wanted to be. How that was gonna happen, no one really knew, to be honest. My parents didn't, and they didn't, discourage me, but they didn't know how, where to position me, to hone that. Um, no one was latching onto what I was doing. you know, say for instance at school or even, you know, later at college and without blowing my own trumpet, when I looked back at some of the things I was doing, Particularly at college, you know, I would just be drawing all the time. You know, I'd be making comics all the time at secondary school. That's when I really remember making, you know, just drawing lots of comics. I did like my version of the, A team, but with all animals and, funny, animal comics seemed to be something that I, I latched onto. I like the idea of, you know, talking animals and, and doing that kinda thing. But when I look at some of the stuff that I was, I'd drawing that, you know, you find stuff in, in boxes and parents give you stuff. I look at the stuff and I think that's really quite good at that, just, the drawing, it was the ability to. Tell a story, to lay out a panel. I look and I think I kind of knew what I was doing and it came from obviously reading a lot of comics, you know, I'm looking at'em and you get a sense of what works and doesn't. But there was no one, so if somebody grabbed onto me, then they probably could have helped me, but there was just no one really doing that. So there was like this huge gap, when I kind of got pushed towards graphic design, which, which it's definitely not done me any harm. In terms of making a living and, setting up a business with my wife. Initially that's what we did, although comics now taken over for both of us almost to be, to be honest. But, you know, push towards graphic design, which gave me a, a good sense of design, obviously,

Lucy: 13:30

That's really interesting cause I didn't know that about you and I can see that in your work

Marc jackson: 13:34

yeah, I can nudge him, a bit of typography from the left to the right with the best of him, uh, up a bit slightly over there, you know, where no one else is gonna notice. No, I think it just needs to just be a little bit, a little bit tighter there between the o and the arm kinda thing. And that comes from that, but also as a self-publisher, being able to take a comic from literally start all the way through to finish Having a file that I can then send to a printer, has been just, incredibly helpful. the same way as my dad, telling me in the fourth year at school, we would have to pick options. And my dad encouraged me to, pick typing. And I was like, why do I want to pick typing? Oh, I think it'll be really important for you to be able to learn how to touch type. I was like, really? And this is like when it was typewriter But I learned touch typing and I can touch type to this day, and that when I type up my comic strips and type up anything has become very, very, helpful.

Lucy: 14:29

Yeah, and sometimes you have skills and then they're not useful for a while, and then later on in your life they suddenly come back into the fore again. You're, and that, that something that you did you thought was a waste of time. Suddenly you're like, oh, this now has a purpose happens

Marc jackson: 14:41

I had my first job in a design agency, when they learned like could touch type anything that needed typing, which is given to me, I was like, I dunno whether that was a good thing or a bad

Lucy: 14:49

Yeah.

Marc jackson: 14:49

Like you can type that. But yeah, and like I say, you know, its, you know, and so, you know, I'm typing now, um,

Lucy: 14:56

I do think typography I, if I open up one of your comics, it seems really distinctive,

Marc jackson: 15:00

So I'll always letter a comic first. So I'll, drop the text into each of the panels from a little word file and I'll drop it into each panel and then just do like quick kinda line, line ending breaks to get a rough idea. And then once I've got all those in the panels, I'll then go and then fully letter it. And what I mean by that is, increase the size of some words for emphasis, tighten things up with the, which forgive me if, you know, this is the, is the gaps between the letters. So I will either tighten them, or I'll open them up a bit to make it look a little bit more random as you would maybe by hand. And then I'll go in and change, at least one have a lowercase or e, just to make it look. Interesting visually,

Lucy: 15:43

Yeah, it is now. Before you even started reading on a kind of panel by panel basis, if you just open up and look at a page that I feel like the text and the blocks of color is the sort of the first thing you see.

Marc jackson: 15:54

I really wanted it to be part of the art. It wasn't just like something just stuck on. So it's, it nestled behind the balloons, sit behind the characters and, any layers to it on top of it. It's all one thing kinda. So it's all part of that. And that, that comes again from, I mentioned Bill Waterson, but I loved how he used typography, particularly with his like sound effects. And if any of the characters were sort of shouting, it would be out of the balloons and I really like that. And so, yeah. So I spend a lot of time on that bit. It is. Not necessarily the bit that I enjoy. cause I just kinda wanna get drawing it.

Lucy: 16:32

Your drawing style as well, I was gonna ask you about, because I think it's really distinctive. do you do all digitally.

Marc jackson: 16:38

yeah, I have a, a Wacom that I draw directly onto, I've got a pen that's pressure sensitive. I have some brushes that I created. Um, that I like the look of

Lucy: 16:48

Yeah, it's almost like a calligraphy, like where it goes from thin to thick kind of style of the line art i, it very distinctive.

Marc jackson: 16:53

If I've got like a marker a felt pen, I do my drawing workshop. I use sort of chisel tips it's as close to that, I think as, as as I can. And yes, I draw them all onto, so it's all digital, but draw by hand if that.

Lucy: 17:07

When you were describing, artists that you've been inspired by, you used the words you, you described energy, and that's one of the things that I would sort of associate with your drawing as well, it seems. very confident, I can't imagine you doing it over and over again. I feel like it just happens in the moment and there it is, and it's all come out brilliantly. Is that the case, or do you go back over things? Or is it quite instinctual?

Marc jackson: 17:28

I haven't got a lot of time for, I don't like doing like, multiple versions of anything. You know, like if I'm doing a cover, there's not like, lots of different designs. It's just like, this is the one, because I can't, my brain's like, why this looks fine, why do many more? But when it comes to the, the comics, it'll be all laid out. because my stories are driven by the dialogue, you know, very much so. I kind of have it in my head. I know what I'm gonna draw by what the character are saying or what the story's happening, so I've got a rough idea. I can kind of see it already a little bit, I think, oh, in this panel that's, I know that's gonna be happening. Particularly if it's something very obviously that's being said or referencing something or an object or something. I, you know, I know that's what's gonna be in it. So I, I might, if I just want get a sense of. a couple of characters in a panel. I might just do a very, just a scribble that looks like nothing. You know, you circle with a line just to get a well, that guy's there or that guy's there, or if it's particularly interesting angle I'll, oh yeah. Well, I'll just really quickly scribble it out, but then I'll just go straight in. And draw it. So I, I, I do it in a different colored line, so I'll do it in a blue or a red line. So it's a different in the finish. And if the lines I draw from the word go, I'm happy with. I keep, if I don't like it, I'll just, I've got one hand on the undo, I'll draw. Yeah. I don't like that one. Do try that again. Do that. Okay. I'm happy with that. I try not to do that too much, especially when I'm drawing a comic strip. Cause it's, you know, if doing it every single panel, I would never get anything done. So I kinda like to work fast and, if it looks a little bit rough and a little bit messy. You know, I try to push for that to, again, to sort of really, enhance the, I'm drawing digitally. Cause some people frown on that, but it's done by hand. So if it looks messy, I, you know, I'd be interested to know, you know, if people could still tell that mine was all drawn digitally. I don't know, I can just get the results I want. When I'm doing the comic strips from panel to panel, very much I tried just to capture it with the first, the composition. Let's just get that composition. I've got my little panel, draw it, without, tinkering with it, you know, so the first thing I draw, or that I'm happy with it stays.

Lucy: 19:35

Yeah, it does. it feels really confident like that. That's what it looks like to me, that it's kind of like, yes, this is what I'm doing now. It's done. That's kind of, that's the vibe that it has for me when I read it.

Marc jackson: 19:44

Yeah, it's the getting it done. I know most of the characters are always running around frantically, which is possibly, you know, connects with, with me as my life. I'm always, people always say I just, that I think I'll probably get my energy, the, in the comics more from cartoon shows, my love of cartoons. But, I, I can see the influences particularly of Sergio Aragones and Bill Waterson in my comics. And then somebody said, you know, your stuff reminds me of Harvey Kurtzman,, which is like a huge, compliment. But I just, I remember seeing a lot of comic strips called, Hey, you And I just looked at these panels and I just thought, If I only ever looked at one thing, this is enough that I've looked at to inspire me for what I want my comics to be like. It was just packed full of energy and one little page. And it just had, you know, as a cartoonist, it was like, if you want to be a cartoonist, all you gotta do is look at that. That one thing, and you'll get everything you need from it in terms of composition, simplicity, you know, knowing what to draw and what not to draw as in, what do I need just to convey what I'm trying to say or show. I don't need to draw everything. I can just show the basic elements and, that was something that really jumped out on me.

Lucy: 20:57

I think that idea of not having to draw everything and keeping things quite simple, is something that's really important as well for when you are working with children as well and getting like young people into, because some, quite often they can get bogged down with the detail. And I know you do a lot of school workshops. What's your approach to working with children on creating their own comics?

Marc jackson: 21:16

it is j just getting'em drawing., the biggest thing I do is, is just getting'em, drawing, drawing characters, just creating, building the confidence. A again, it's similar to the way I do with when I create them my own comics is only drawing with felt pens. Let's just see if we can get it with the thing we've, we've picked up, rather than having a pencil and a rubber to fall back on, which again is gonna mess around the children and give them the doubts and trying to get things perfect. And I talk about the fact that there is no such thing as that. And it's the most important thing with drawing is not being good at it, which actually having the confidence to do it if you're confident. I got to the point where I felt confident if somebody could come to me and say, mark, I want you to draw a comic and we will pay you to draw this comic. be confident enough to go, I can do that. We need it by then. Yes, I can do that. So I know that that's what the most important things build and the confidence. Cause I had that ability that had always kind of been there I had to build up confidence. So that's what I talk about is that most important. And, and then just drawing and having fun, creating crazy things and, you know, let's draw this and, you know, tap it into the fact that children's minds working a different way, you know, and then this happened, you know, I did a comic at the end of last year, where I drew it. It was kind of like an improvisational comic. I wanted to do a new comic. To take to Thought Bubble, the Comic Art Festival and I wanted it to have a spine. So the minimum page count for a spine is 40, 40 pages or 36 pages plus the four pages of the cover. Each page was just one drawing. But I thought, I,. I haven't got time to, to write a 36 page story. I hadn't got an idea for a 36 page story, but I thought, but I can draw 36 drawings. I could do that. And it was a, I wanted to do a new space comic, so I thought, oh, I could draw 36 weird space drawings that are kinda of loosely connected. I'll start off with a couple of characters and then I'll, when I want to draw another character, I'll end, go to another planet. And then I wrote the story based around that. And that for me is kinda like how a does, they don't sit there mapping out a big storyline first, and they just get drawing and then figure out what people are saying or what's happening.

Lucy: 23:19

And what sort of feedback do you get from teachers? And children, I'm sure they must find it really inspiring, but what have you heard about the kind of impact, lasting impact maybe after you've been.

Marc jackson: 23:28

without blowing my own trumpet. It's always positive because the biggest, and the only reason I say that is because I can see, because when I leave the room, or, you know, we've all held up the drawings they've all done that they didn't have an hour ago or earlier that morning I just think, look at that. Look, look what they've done. They're on big a three sheets and they fill their page for these fantastic things that I've got them drawing. We start drawing robots and then we build on that. And then they might say, oh, what could we draw on this? Could that, and I'm like, what do you think could be on the end of this one's arm? And, and so it's a real collaboration. But the proof of the fact that it, that it's, it works. Going into schools and doing things like this is just by what you can see You know, I do my drawing workshops at my studio, and in libraries and at festivals, you know, parents will come to me afterwards and and say, oh, send me messages and say they just kept on drawing afterwards. Or every now and then I'll get a little email or an Instagram message of, here are some drawings by this particular child that carried on doing it after, after I've gone. Cuz I know that if I had been in a classroom and say for instance, one of, you know, my heroes that I've mentioned to you came into that classroom when I was that age, that would've just been a game changer.

Lucy: 24:43

Yeah. That's brilliant. And, if teachers are wondering where to start in terms of with a, a stimulus to get your, you mentioned robots there, which just straight away struck me as That's a great idea because you can just combine a number of shapes and you've got a robot. it's a really accessible, easy place to start. Have you got any other little nuggets that could be good starting points for teachers wanting to explore this?

Marc jackson: 25:05

I mean, I just, you know, the robot one is, is, is fantastic. But I do then a number of things like, let's write a list of 10 funny things, like 10 different funny things, that you could come up with, or even, no, sorry. Even just funny, but just bangs a pizza or a foot that's on a skateboard, just a foot. and then you write this list and then you get the children to pick them at random. And then we draw them at random on our big, on our piece of paper and then maybe even start to see if we can connect them up and stuff like that. And I don't even know where it came from. It's just trying to come with different things. Starting in the bottom left hand corner, I do a thing where we, we draw a giraffe coming up from the corner. So you just see his neck and in the face, and then start to get suggestions. Right. Okay. What now is balancing on top of the giraffe? What's next? A hat. Okay. What's on top of the hat? And then we get to the top of the page, and some children have done it small. We're going big. Well, I've got to the top. Okay, well let's just spend, lets defy the laws of gravity. And now they, everything's coming down the page and it's just a drawing thing. It looks like the work of Mad Men. But, it is just being creative, you know? And just drawing, because that's the confidence boost. You know, the, the way to build that, that confidence is just to get'em doing it.

Lucy: 26:15

And how important do you think is that element of it's humor, but it's also kind of just slightly mad, um, kind of contrasting things can you imagine yourself writing that was very serious? Have you ever written a very serious comic or is, is humor sort of where you tend to go?

Marc jackson: 26:34

I've always done humor. I did some, Comics were a place called online called, spiral Bound, which was on a website called Medium, and I did some comics for them quite regularly about the family. But they were based on humor about the things that my children would say. Uh, but they were kind of family funnies it was called. And then I also did a comic about, my time struggling with O C D. But I did that in a fun kind of way. I did, well, I built it as a hiphop comic about O C D, so it was all rhyming, and it was repetitive. I, I, you know, hip hop has got that repetitive kind of beat or. Callback. And that for me, connected with o cd. Cause o CD was all about repetition, or at least it was for me. And over overthinking, overdoing, and so serious as I've subject, but I did it sort of in a you fun way

Lucy: 27:24

And do you think that is about engagement, about engaging with your reader and trying to, accessibility for you to keeping that humorous side in?

Marc jackson: 27:31

Yeah. I, that's what I do. I like, the funny comics, the weird, you'll see from the ones you've got is that even though they're all hopefully funny and definitely probably a bit weird, like the Spookids comic is different in terms of that being a continuing story. So when I'm working on that one, I, I do a page of that is one comic strip and I upload on, on my website, on my Kofi website, either each month or at one point I was doing two a month. and then when I had enough to collect together as a single issue, I would do that and they continue on. So that's, that's something with a structured story. It's, you know, still random, but it, it's continuing along. It's not so random that it doesn't make any sense. And then you've got, then like the Mr. T one is just like a contain thing then

Lucy: 28:14

like Mr. T. It make making me laugh. I enjoyed it a lot.

Marc jackson: 28:19

Captain.

Lucy: 28:21

Yeah. Yeah. That's one I've got open actually, that when I was talking about the text and things, that was the

Marc jackson: 28:26

So that one collects together comics I do for a comics magazine called Hey Kids Comics, which is the one I was doing the cover for, I was telling you yesterday. So each one of those pages is one strip that gets published in their comics magazine each month. And that's just an exercise in, you know, daft premise, goofy setup and then funny things happening, and then with like a gag or a continued ridiculousness at the end. So it is just a great chance to just do whatever I want, but, keep it within the confines. So I very early on just realized and decided that it should be, that it doesn't really veer away from anything other than a, situation that involves breakfast Always happen at breakfast, but it's all breakfast based. And the fact that this character wants you to be not eating that, but eating cereal. So it's quite nice to give yourself those restrictions. The only thing with Spookids it's got we sci-fi and monsters and time travel. There's ninja elements. There's, I mean, inspirations in there for me that perhaps people might not even recognize. But I know what's inspired me in that comic. so that's the one I do where I just do whatever I want in there. But it's set in the eighties, but the eighties as a whole. So the characters exist in the eighties as opposed to in 1982. I can reference anything in the eighties. I allow myself to be able to reference anything in the eighties, and the characters just know it,

Lucy: 29:53

That's great. Love that.

Marc jackson: 29:55

so this, the one character's a girl called Nellie, she's like one of the main characters, and she will drop at least two, maybe three eighties pop culture references each page. So look out for those.

Lucy: 30:06

Brilliant. so we're coming to the end of the podcast and I always like to ask guests to leave us with a few things to think about things for us as educators to consider, tips or further reading. Anything you like really.

Marc jackson: 30:24

Oh gosh. Well, just as you know, people making comics, you know, maybe sort of starting out just to, just to do it. You know, draw your comics. Make your comics, keep going. Don't be too precious. Make sure you show'em to people. Take on constructive criticism, because that has been something that really helped me when I came back to it, to listen to people.

Lucy: 30:44

who did you seek that sort of advice? From

Marc jackson: 30:45

I managed to, you know, again, this is the great thing I was gonna say with, with with with the will web you got is access to the Will wire web. Do people call it that anymore? Uh,

Lucy: 30:53

I don't think so.

Marc jackson: 30:55

I know. but you've got this access to people. There's someone I was like, oh, I can make a friend if you know, possibly with this person, or I found this person on Twitter. Look at all these names of people that I grew up reading their stuff. They're actually now there. And then you send them a message. And for the most part, these people got back to me. You know, cuz I was always sort of, starting off with, I, been a fan of your work since whenever. I've recently started, you know, this is like, say sort 10 years ago, recently started coming back to comics. Would would I be able to share some of my stuff? And, and some people would just come back and, you know, say yes and then go, yeah, this looks great. And then other people, I mentioned Hillary. I think in our conversation, Hillary barter, he was particularly, Not, not critical as in bad. He said, what do you want me to do? Do you want me to just say, yeah, that's great, or do you want me to actually say some stuff? I said what? I said, your first thought is, oh, please just say it's great

Lucy: 31:48

Yeah. I'll just take the.

Marc jackson: 31:52

outta curiosity. And he said few things and few, you derailed me a little bit. but the one thing he did say, which really stuck with me and always will, is that in your comics, you know, especially comic strips, show the reader unless you're doing it for a reason, show, show the reader where these characters are in this little box. Where are they? What is the world that they are in? Are they inside? Are they outside? I wanna see them head to toe. I wanna see their body, what shape they're, there's a lot of things these days where people, they haven't the confidence be drawing close to be head and shoulders. And you're not showing anybody, you're expecting them that people have to read it. Whereas again, if you are showing people where they are, all right, these guys are outside. I say, we talked about simplifying it. You don't have to show lots, just a tree, a bit of grass, or a skirting board or a table can show, oh, these characters are inside. There's a window that has a building outside. All right, well, they're inside, they're in own apartment, they're in, you know, this skyscraper outside there. but show them from head to toe. And then on panel two, you can maybe zoom in on one character panel three, you can zoom in on the other character if you feel any. And then panel four, go back out again. Zoom out again to show these to reestablish. Remember these characters from panel one, this is where they are. Or now they've actually transitioned, they're now somewhere else, so he said, you know, I wanna see where they are. There are some cartoons that strictly always show every panel you see the full character. But I like to sort of zoom in and out like you would do, in film or in a cinema or whatever. Which I think it's important cause it makes it look interesting. And challenge yourself to draw stuff in your comics that, is hard to draw, because that's, you know, gonna make it more interesting. Don't just put things in there that are safe because again, if you're making your own comics, yeah, all right, you can do that. But if you wanna do this as your job, somebody at some point will come along and go, I wait to draw this. Even if it's either for a comic or a commission and you can't go, well, I don't draw bicycles. Thank you very much. I.

Lucy: 33:48

No horses, no bicycles.

Marc jackson: 33:51

Figure it out because if you wanna do, it's your job. You can't pick and choose. And so you've gotta be ready to go if somebody goes. And that's why I always thought I need to be ready now for when hopefully somebody goes, right, yeah, we like this, let's have six of those, please. And that's happened a few times. Once, quite early on when I was fortunate enough that the Beano, delight character that I pitched to them and they said, right, we want, six of these and we need them by this date. And I was like, oh, okay. And you know, you still sort of wobble a little bit and think, oh, hang on a sec. Then you go, well, what do I wanna do? Do wanna go back to them, say, I can't do that, or do I wanna just get it done and get in the Beano. Those, are your two options. That's how I saw it. know? So give yourself a deadline because if you wanna do it as a job, that's what will happen. I'm fortunate that I'm in a position. With like, you know, commissions, you know, commissions come along like birthday commissions and stuff, and the deadline is somebody's birthday. but if somebody comes to me and goes, it's, it's tomorrow. I go, well, I, I can't do it. But with print and publications, you know, I do my comics the month, the newspaper each month. And so I know what days of the month I need to be working on those, cuz I know what date, is the drop dead date for, the editors to have it. so give yourself a deadline. And, and that's, that's my biggest tip.

Lucy: 35:10

That's really useful. And in terms of the sort of feedback and taking on board what, what people are saying, do you try and build that into your sessions? Maybe with, with more regular, rather than just when you're one off in the school? I think it might be a bit harder cause you don't have that kind of relationship set up with the children, that you're working with. But when you're working regularly in the same space, is that something that you try and build into your sessions as well?

Marc jackson: 35:31

With the kids, I just encourage'em, and I might just sort of say, did you think about doing this? Maybe you could have tried that. And just focus on the fact that they're creating. When I did the thing with the adults a couple weeks ago, we, we did a thing where we were doing, a particular sort of way of drawing a comic strip, actually doing the opposite of that, I said, and actually zooming, starting with a zoom in and ending up where you show where the character was and some of them were, you could see where unsure exactly what to do. And some of them had made two quicker leap from, we got a closeup of an eye, and then by panel three it, they were showing half a full face body torso kind of thing. And at that point, I. I could just go, okay, that's great. Or I could say I wanna actually see you really transition this from a close up on an eye all the way through to where we end up with the body. So I, I've started to do that a little bit with the adults, with the children. I'm just wanna encourage them just to do it. Cause I know that anything could knock them. So I don't really wanna start shutting them down.

Lucy: 36:34

Yeah. Interesting. Brilliant. So we are at the end now. Thank you so much for your time. We just like to end the podcast on a recommendation. If you were going to recommend one comic or graphic novel, or even a book about graphic novels to recommend something that we can add to our to be read piles tomorrow, what would it be? Only one. Some people are sneaky and try and sneak more in

Marc jackson: 37:01

Okay. well I don't buy a lot of regular comics, uh, cause it's expensive, but I just, with the adult group, we just started doing like a little bit of a reading group where I suggest a certain comic and it's based off of something that I, I think will be good for us to, to read and there's a new series called Immortal Sergeant by Cartoons, Ken Niimora, and, Joe Kelly is the writer. They worked together on a comic called I Kill Giants quite a few years ago, and it's their new series and it's like a five issue series. And Ken Style is just fantastic. He's a Japanese Spanish cartoonist and he's got such amazing energy in his work. You know, you can see that very Japanese in style and approach. But it's just, it's just really simple and just if you, if you look it up, there's just the, the energy of it. And, and, and so I said, let's get that comic as our reading thing. We're now gonna do the whole series. Because it's very, very readable and great to sort of stare and look at and use. So it's deceptively. It's a great talking piece. we can pick this apart and, see how a comic can kind work, so that's a, that's a great comic. And Ken's, I just love Ken's work, so, I was very fortunate enough to meet him as well, which is great.

Lucy: 38:11

That's, that sounds like a really good one. So thank you very much for that recommendation and thank you for coming on the podcast. It's been brilliant to, hear everything that you've learned from working with children and also hear about your journey as a comics creator. It's been really interesting and inspiring, so thank you.

Marc jackson: 38:26

Thank

38:29

And there we have it. Thanks so much to mark for his tips, his advice, just to say the mark also organize is MACPOW, which is Macclesfield, annual comic art festival. Taking place around the town. And he's been doing that for the last eight years. It is happening very soon at the end of June, beginning of July. So do have a look. If you're local, if you're up in the north of England, do check that out. There's a whole host of different things happening and you can find the link to the website with all the details. In the show notes. I've been reading well, this week I've been reading a little bit more on the academic side, having a look at. Called children's literature in action. Edited by Richard Charlseworth, Debra Friedland and. Helen Jones and published by Goldsmiths university. It's a collection of action research projects, all centered around children's literature and Helen's chapter in that book. Is all around the impact of a comics club. On seven and eight year olds. A really interesting read. I'm having to have Helen on the podcast in season three. It's talk a little bit more about both that project and other research projects that she'd been doing around the impact of both reading and creating comics. Some really interesting findings there. Also in that book and article by Vicky baker, friend of mine, around how picture books can be used to meet, develop. Comprehension strategies so there's some really rich, practical takeouts from that research to both excellent reads and that book really dense with and rich with content. So it definitely recommended. That's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening again. Do take the time. If you can, to go onto apple podcasts and recommend the podcast by leaving a review, it really helps other people find the content. So if you could do that, I'd really appreciate it. I've now finally. And found how to read the. Reviews. So I will read some out as well. If you believed on this week, that will be brilliant. Next week, it is going to be the final episode of season two of comic boom. And we have got a brilliant guest to end the season, Victoria Jameson. Author and illustrator of roller girl of when stars are scattered and many of the books is going to join me for a chat. And just in time for refugee week as well. Her work that she wrote in collaboration with Omar Muhammad. Is all around the refugee experience from firsthand story of what it was like to be living in a refugee camp. as a child, so really powerful book. I know many people use that in their teaching as well. So I'm going to make every effort I can to make that episode something that can be played in class too. So it can be a resource for children and young people, either in your comic club or. In your class, if you have one, so hopefully that'll be useful resource for you. It will be out next week. Thanks very much everyone. My name is Lucy star buck Bradley, and I'm the producer and the host of this podcast. Comic boom.